00:01 CARLSON: I'm Jon Carlson. 00:02 LEWIS: And I'm Judy Lewis. 00:03 This program is on Assertiveness. 00:06 CARLSON: In this program you are going to have the 00:07 opportunity to learn different skills and different 00:10 strategies on how to be a more assertive person. 00:16 Let's begin, though, with a scenario for you as well as 00:20 for our studio audience. 00:22 Our studio audience is a group of people who are grappling 00:26 with different issues in the different stages of recovery 00:31 of substance use. 00:32 The scenario goes something like this: You are going out 00:36 for dinner with a group of friends. 00:38 You sit down and the waitress comes up and says, "What would" 00:41 "you like to drink?" And all of a sudden one of the group 00:44 members says, "We will have beer." 00:46 "Everyone wants to have Sam Adams." What do you do? 00:51 What do you say? 00:54 LEWIS: These are the kinds of things 00:55 that happen to everybody. 00:57 If it isn't beer it's desserts. 00:58 If it isn't desserts it is somebody 01:00 wanting to borrow money. 01:02 Let's ask our group here in the audience what are some 01:06 examples that have happened in your own lives where you 01:09 either had to say no or had to find a 01:13 way to express yourself? 01:15 FEMALE VOICE: I've got one. 01:16 This happened just the other day. 01:19 And I was shoe shopping. 01:22 And it was in one of those big warehouses and you take the 01:26 shoes out yourself and you try them on. 01:28 Well I have sort of two different size feet, so, it is 01:32 very frustrating for me. 01:34 And I think I was in there for about an hour and a half 01:36 trying on shoes. 01:38 And they started to close and I put as many shoes away? 01:42 I was practically crying by this time, that's how 01:44 frustrated I was. 01:46 And then this woman, one of the women that works there 01:49 comes, and they said last call, so I took the shoes that 01:54 I thought fit and I ran to the counter and a woman that was 01:59 walking around and I guess saw some stray shoes said to me, 02:03 "It would have been nice if you would have put them away." 02:09 And being a people pleaser I said, "Oh, I'll put them" 02:13 away." I go, "No problem, I'm putting the shoes away." But I 02:18 was thinking, why am I doing this, it's not my job. 02:22 I'm spending money not making it. 02:25 And I just sort of bent over to do the total opposite to 02:30 make her happy. 02:30 CARLSON: Boy, that's a tough situation. 02:32 Who else has had one? 02:34 MALE VOICE: I have an older car that 02:36 requires a lot of work. 02:39 I don't know very much about cars, you know, I know what it 02:42 needs generally. 02:43 But they come back and they will tell you it needs a 02:45 valve drop and? 02:47 Whoa, what's a valve drop. 02:48 They explain the valve drop. 02:50 I say, okay, go do it. 02:53 I walk out, about five minutes later I think, what did I just 02:58 tell them to spend $500 on, and why? 03:01 Only because of my lack of knowledge about cars puts me 03:05 in a position where I don't feel that I can be assertive 03:09 and ask the appropriate questions. 03:12 And of course it translates into other areas of my life. 03:16 CARLSON: Who else? 03:20 FEMALE VOICE: I guess I have one as far, you know, I needed 03:25 some dental work done, didn't have some of it 03:26 done, it was expensive. 03:28 At that point my dentist said, "You need additional work," 03:32 which, again, is going to be hundreds 03:34 and hundreds of dollars. 03:35 So, I was paying off the first set of bills and he had warned 03:40 me, "You should come in soon and get the second set done." 03:43 And I thought, no, I'm going to wait until I can afford to 03:47 have it done. 03:48 And now I'm really paying unfortunately. 03:50 The tooth will probably need more than a crowning rather 03:53 than going to my dentist and saying, "Can I work out" 03:55 payment plans or something?" Whatever, I let it go too far 04:00 and added extra cost to the whole thing. 04:03 CARLSON: What do you think stopped you from making a 04:05 different choice? 04:07 FEMALE VOICE: I guess I was just basically very 04:13 self-conscious, embarrassed to call my dentist and say, 04:16 "Look, I'm really poor; I cannot afford this right now. 04:20 Can we make arrangements for this additional work?" 04:25 CARLSON: So, fear, embarrassment? 04:27 FEMALE VOICE: Yeah, or him not understanding? How can you 04:30 not have another $500, you know? 04:37 FEMALE VOICE: I've had a problem, and mine would be the 04:39 lack of assertiveness. 04:41 When I was married I had a real hard time asserting 04:47 myself to my husband. 04:48 Whatever the situation was, whatever, it was, if I didn't 04:53 agree I had a hard time asserting myself and phrasing 04:59 whatever it was in a manor to get my needs met. 05:03 Real hard time being assertive. 05:05 CARLSON: Can you give a specific time that that might 05:08 have happened? 05:08 Or over a specific activity? 05:10 FEMALE VOICE: Through the whole 13 years. 05:12 CARLSON: 13 years total. 05:13 FEMALE VOICE: No, I'm just teasing. 05:16 And I found myself whenever I wanted to do something, I 05:19 thought as if I was asking permission. 05:21 Well I think I am going to stay? 05:25 And I had a real hard time, especially early on in the 05:29 marriage, and then later on in the latter years, I think as a 05:33 result of me becoming assertive kind of helped in 05:35 the divorce. 05:37 However, I found a real hard time being assertive in my 05:43 marriage, whatever the situation was. 05:45 Real hard time. 05:46 Real hard time. 05:47 CARLSON: Okay, sounds like a lot of different situations, 05:52 whether it be dealings with car people or dentists or 05:57 marriages or relationships. 06:00 Are there others? 06:02 FEMALE VOICE: I was married for 30 years and I wasn't very 06:04 assertive in that either. 06:05 And I remember distinctly the first time in recovery I was 06:10 in a store shopping and I always call it kind of 06:15 emotionally retarded. 06:17 You know, I can always think of what I should have said to 06:19 that person 30 minutes after I am home, close the door, and 06:22 they are not there. 06:23 And I could have just done it so beautifully, but at the 06:26 time I just can't get the energy or whatever it is, 06:30 guts, courage, whatever. 06:32 And, anyway I was in this store and first time I ever 06:37 got in synch where I was being treated in a certain manner 06:41 and it was causing this emotion in me. 06:44 And it was almost like I was delighted with the emotion 06:47 because, wow. 06:49 And this woman was bagging what I had bought, and then 06:54 there was the checker, and the bagger was just "mah, jah", 06:57 "dah," and just going on and on and one, you know. 07:00 And it was really irritating to me. 07:02 And I'm thinking, and finally I said, "I'm sorry you are" 07:08 having such a bad day. 07:10 Is there anything I can do to make it more pleasant for 07:12 you?" And the cashier tapped me and she said, "She's deaf." 07:16 She's deaf. 07:17 But I was still happy, because like I say, it was the first 07:30 time that I had gotten in synch with that. 07:33 LEWIS: You practiced in a safe place. 07:35 CARLSON: A safe environment. 07:36 FEMALE VOICE: And I was so delighted to feel the anger or 07:43 whatever, not thirty minutes after I got home, it was right 07:46 then and there. 07:47 But that was the first time, I've done better since. 07:50 I check to see. 07:53 CARLSON: Have you moved onto hearing people? 07:55 Good. 07:56 Great. 07:57 LEWIS: Really, it's interesting ? With so many of 07:59 these what you are doing is looking back and saying either 08:03 I'm glad I tried that, or, oh, this is something I could have 08:07 done? This is something I should have done. 08:09 And I think that is what this assertiveness training is kind 08:11 of all about, making sure that you have the skills right at 08:17 our fingertips so that you can choose what you want to do. 08:20 CARLSON: Why don't we bring out our guest, Bob Alberti, 08:26 and learn more about assertiveness. 08:30 LEWIS: Bob, this program is about assertiveness? 08:33 What is that all about? 08:35 ALBERTI: Well the word assertiveness itself, Judy, 08:36 means something different of course to everybody 08:38 who looks at it. 08:39 But as far as I am concerned, the two key terms that go to 08:42 describing what assertiveness is about 08:45 are respect and choice. 08:47 To allow an individual to gain additional self-respect and 08:51 respect for others, and to allow that person to be able 08:54 to choose for herself or himself what is really 08:57 important in his or her life and to be 08:59 able to act upon that. 09:02 CARLSON: Is it the same thing as aggression or 09:03 aggressiveness? 09:05 ALBERTI: No, it's not at all, Jon. 09:06 In fact, I think it is really important to make that 09:08 differentiation and I'm glad you asked. 09:10 A lot of people do make that equation and it is 09:12 unfortunate. 09:13 Assertiveness is a process of expressing yourself in such a 09:16 way that you don't demean or put down the other person. 09:19 It allows relationships to remain on an equal footing. 09:21 It allows one person to be expressive without putting 09:25 somebody else down in the process. 09:27 Aggressiveness is a style of behavior that allows only one 09:32 person to come out a winner. 09:33 It's a putdown process. 09:35 It's a pushing process. 09:37 I think the important differences between those two 09:40 may be easily characterized if you think in terms of a third 09:43 component which is non-assertiveness. 09:45 Assertiveness is kind of in the center of the spectrum, if 09:48 you will, of behaviors. 09:49 Non-assertiveness is a style of self-denial, of inhibition, 09:53 of inability to express yourself. 09:56 Sometimes it can be equated with shyness, but it goes 09:59 beyond that and is the negative or least effective 10:05 end of the spectrum. 10:06 Aggressiveness on the other end of the spectrum, as I say, 10:08 is pushy, demeaning, putting down others. 10:12 CARLSON: This kind of position of balance, then, you are 10:13 trying to reach... 10:14 ALBERTI: A balance is an excellent way to 10:15 describe it, yes. 10:16 LEWIS: But still, I'm wondering when you talk about 10:18 that, I understand that assertiveness isn't pushy, but 10:21 still it sounds like there is a lot of attention to the 10:24 individual, the individual's own rights. 10:27 How does that fit in with the idea of a sense of community, 10:32 being concerned about the other people? 10:36 ALBERTI: I think that is a very good way to characterize 10:39 the very value of it, Judy, because we are talking about a 10:42 process that is designed to help people level the playing 10:45 field, if you will, to operate in a sense of more equality in 10:48 relationships. 10:49 As I said, respect for the other person as well as 10:51 respect for myself. 10:53 The idea here of assertiveness being pushy, I think, is a 10:58 part of the confusion in terms of what Jon suggested earlier, 11:01 the difference between assertiveness and 11:02 aggressiveness. 11:03 One of the problems that we had, I think, in the 70's and 11:06 early 80's when assertiveness training first became really 11:08 popular and a lot of groups around the country were doing 11:11 it and trying to help people to become more expressive of 11:14 themselves, a lot of people were confusing those things 11:18 and going into a gas station and asking for somebody to 11:21 fill up the air in their tires or check the oil or something 11:24 like that and never buying any gas. 11:26 Doing things that were pushy and manipulative of other 11:28 people in the name of assertiveness, and I think 11:30 that is very inappropriate. 11:32 LEWIS: So assertiveness that is authentic really pay 11:35 attention to other people's needs, too. 11:37 ALBERTI: Indeed. 11:38 CARLSON: As a man is this something that I need to know? 11:40 It used to that these assertiveness groups were 11:43 largely for women. 11:44 ALBERTI: Assertiveness certainly became popular 11:46 around the time that the women's movement began to gain 11:48 some steam in the mid-70's in this country. 11:51 And I think the differentiation between the 11:53 needs of men and women maybe is a good 11:54 characterization of it, Jon. 11:56 We have probably the stereotypic idea that in this 11:59 society men are aggressive and strong and pushy and women are 12:04 weak and mild and timid. 12:05 And, the most recent two decades let us say that we 12:10 have found that women are becoming much more expressive 12:12 of themselves. 12:12 And so, do men not need this, well yes, men very much do. 12:16 And the fact is we find that there really are not those 12:18 significant gender differences that we thought because the 12:22 society tended to be structured in a patriarchal 12:25 kind of way that men appeared to be in charge, men appeared 12:29 to be the strong ones, if you will, and women needed to 12:33 become stronger? We thought, perhaps, that was 12:36 typical of all men. 12:37 It's not any more than being inhibited and shy is typical 12:40 of all women. 12:41 Both genders need very much to develop a kind of assertive 12:44 style that is, again, fostered on the basis of equality 12:47 between people. 12:48 LEWIS: And women have always been socialized to hold back 12:52 from expressing their needs fully. 12:56 That has been part of the way women are brought up. 12:59 But what you are saying is even if men haven't been 13:02 socialized that way there still are a lot of men who 13:05 have those issues? 13:06 ALBERTI: There are, indeed, and I think the important 13:08 thing to recognize is that is changing for women as well. 13:11 And so I think we are reaching a point, I think, in this 13:14 society where we have greater concern for an appropriate 13:17 level of assertive expression on both genders and I think 13:21 for men particularly to recognize that they can 13:24 express themselves without being aggressive. 13:27 That they don't have to be the bullies that perhaps my 13:30 generation was taught was the way that a man expresses 13:33 himself, that that isn't necessary and that there is an 13:35 assertive, a mean, a balance as Jon suggests kind of style. 13:39 CARLSON: How do you know when to use assertiveness? 13:42 ALBERTI: Well, it's an interesting question and 13:44 because I have been teaching assertiveness for a long time, 13:47 my notion is you always use assertiveness. 13:49 But the fact is that what we are trying to do, as I said 13:51 earlier, is to teach people the skills they need to make 13:54 choices in their lives. 13:55 And one of the important choices is to know that there 13:57 are times when you don't want to be assertive. 13:59 There are times when you don't want to take the risk. 14:01 For example, if you have a very difficult boss to deal 14:04 with, and that particular job is the job you need to have 14:08 and there aren't other jobs available, for example, in 14:09 your field or in your area, then maybe you need to be 14:12 willing to make a choice to back off at times and realize 14:15 that you are doing it. 14:16 You are not doing it because you can't 14:17 stand up to that person. 14:18 You are doing it because you recognize that you have that 14:21 choice and you are deciding to back off. 14:24 But anytime that one feels the need to express feelings or 14:29 opinions or ideas or one's attitude in the situation 14:33 because one's self-respect depends on it, then I think it 14:37 is appropriate to be thinking about being assertive, 14:40 standing up for yourself, standing up for your rights, 14:42 not allowing yourself to be pushed around. 14:44 LEWIS: So if you don't have the skill then you don't have 14:46 the choice. 14:47 ALBERTI: Exactly. 14:47 LEWIS: And if you do have the skill then you can choose when 14:50 it is appropriate to use? 14:50 ALBERTI: To use it or not, exactly. 14:52 LEWIS: It gives you some freedom then, doesn't it? 14:53 ALBERTI: That's right. 14:54 CARLSON: What kind of obstacles stand in the way of 14:56 people becoming assertive? 14:58 It sounds like such an important concept and yet it 15:01 just doesn't happen. 15:02 ALBERTI: No, it doesn't, Jon. 15:03 There are lots of obstacles and obviously we are talking 15:06 here in the context of skill training and this program, but 15:09 there are a number of other things that go into becoming 15:11 an assertive person or becoming able to behave 15:14 assertively when you wish to do so. 15:16 And one of those is internal, at least, and that is anxiety 15:22 that the individual feels about that. 15:24 I'm afraid in some way, I may be rejected, I may be 15:27 criticized. 15:27 The other person may come on strongly in response or yell 15:30 at me or I may lose my job or I may lose this 15:32 relationship, whatever. 15:33 There may be fears involved there, anxiety. 15:36 And that is a very significant obstacle. 15:38 Other obstacles outside the person include the other 15:41 people in one's life. 15:42 Some people may be just very difficult to confront. 15:45 They may be so pushy, so aggressive themselves that one 15:48 is unwilling to confront or to be assertive with them because 15:52 you simply know that that person is not going to respond 15:54 in a positive way. 15:55 And so that is one of the difficulties. 15:58 Other obstacles can be one's circumstances, situation. 16:00 For example, I mentioned before the idea that you may 16:02 be in a job situation in which you are not able to find 16:05 something else and you are pretty sure about that? 16:07 That's a rational choice to stay in the job and perhaps to 16:12 elect not to assertive. 16:13 And so that can be an obstacle when your circumstances just 16:16 don't permit it. 16:17 LEWIS: So the reality is that just because I'm assertive 16:19 doesn't mean I will always get what I want? 16:21 ALBERTI: Amen to that. 16:22 LEWIS: Oh, too bad. 16:25 ALBERTI: Yes, it is too bad, Judy. 16:26 CARLSON: It sounds like you do have more control over the 16:28 internal things, those internal obstacles, like in 16:32 working with your thoughts about fears and anxieties and 16:36 maybe potential consequences that aren't reality-based. 16:41 And it is more difficult to work with 16:42 those external barriers? 16:44 ALBERTI: We can always control ourselves more easily than we 16:47 can control others. 16:48 We do, in the marriage counseling field as you are 16:51 both away of certainly, we are very much concerned of the 16:54 fact that if we are working with one partner, that person 16:58 can change him or herself, but can't change the other partner 17:02 necessarily. 17:02 And so it is much more appropriate to be thinking in 17:06 terms of those kinds of things that you can do. 17:07 I can change myself and maybe I can change the world just a 17:10 little bit by changing myself. 17:12 CARLSON: Would that be at the heart of assertiveness 17:14 training then is getting someone to 17:16 change their response? 17:18 ALBERTI: Typically that is what we are trying to do is to 17:20 develop skills and help them to overcome the internal 17:23 obstacles, anxiety, and their own attitudes and thoughts 17:25 about it so that they feel they have the right to do it, 17:27 that they have the skills to do it, they are not afraid to 17:29 do it, and then they can go out and do it. 17:32 CARLSON: Go over that word again you kind of stuck in 17:34 here, the "right" to do it. 17:35 Can you talk about that? 17:37 ALBERTI: Well obviously I have a particular interest in that 17:39 since you mention it because the title of my book in the 17:42 field is "Your Perfect Right." But the concept is that we all 17:45 have rights as human beings. 17:47 I mean if you think of it as far back as the Bill of Rights 17:49 of this nation, the concept that we all have the 17:52 unalienable right to life, liberty and 17:55 the pursuit of happiness. 17:56 We can go after it. 17:57 It doesn't necessarily guarantee we are 17:59 going to have it. 18:00 But the concept of rights and the concept, for example, if 18:02 you think in terms of like a Universal Declaration of Human. 18:06 Right that the United Nations has adopted, there are some 18:08 universal kinds of things as human being that I think we 18:11 would agree are appropriate. 18:14 And we all have rights to express ourselves. 18:16 We all have the right to be who we are, as long as we are 18:20 allowing other people to be who they are. 18:22 And sometimes those rights come in conflict and we 18:24 negotiate and we try to work out reasonably and 18:26 unfortunately not always reasonably some solutions. 18:29 But, the concept of rights is really key to the concept of 18:32 assertiveness. 18:33 LEWIS: So, if I want to be assertive, I must first really 18:36 believe internally that I have the right to 18:41 have my needs met? 18:42 The right to express certain ideas? 18:45 And then once I internalize the idea that I have the 18:49 right, then I need the skills to be able to carry it out. 18:52 ALBERTI: You need both. 18:52 I wouldn't necessarily put them in sequence quite that 18:55 way in the sense that it is possible that you could try it 18:58 out even if you were uncertain about your right to do it. 19:01 And gradually, I think, you would recognize as you did try 19:04 it out that, gee, I do have a right to do this because it 19:06 seems to be working out and other people acknowledge my 19:08 rights along the way. 19:09 But it does help certainly to have a belief that it is a 19:12 good thing for you to do. 19:14 CARLSON: So, your approach really believes that people 19:17 have the ability within themselves, then, to make 19:20 different choices and to really change 19:22 how their life works? 19:24 ALBERTI: I think we have an inherent ability to do that, 19:27 Jon, but for lots of reasons those abilities are stifled in 19:30 one way or another, whether they are distorted or 19:33 converted into irrational ideas or other things that get 19:37 in the way of people exercising those abilities. 19:40 I think we have that kind of potential within us. 19:46 CARLSON: And when we finish this program after going 19:48 through assertiveness training. 19:51 We become more assertive people. 19:53 How will our life change? 19:55 What's in it for us to do this? 19:58 ALBERTI: Well we hope that those people who are 20:00 particularly concerned with substance use issues will be 20:03 able to, for example, develop some refusal skills along the 20:06 lines of assertiveness. 20:07 That they will be able to say "no" more easily, for example, 20:10 or say it more firmly or say it more consistently or say it 20:13 more powerfully. 20:14 That is one element. 20:15 We hope also that they will be able to develop a stronger 20:19 base of social supports, relationships with others who 20:22 are on their team, people who are supporting their decision 20:26 to give up the use of whatever substance or to cut it back. 20:30 That they are going to be able to feel better about 20:32 themselves and gain more self-respect from making more 20:35 decisions for themselves for making choices for themselves 20:38 and being rewarded for that because that is the way the 20:40 world tends to work. 20:42 People are afraid that if I do this kind of thing, if I 20:45 express myself, if I make these choices for myself, 20:47 people are going to think I am selfish, they are going to 20:49 think I am pushy. 20:50 They are going to think I am some kind of an ogre. 20:52 But the fact is if you do those kind of things in an 20:54 assertive way it turns out you really do get very positive 20:57 feedback from the world and people tend to like that about 21:00 you and they will respect you more. 21:02 CARLSON: Well why don't we let Bob show us how to make our 21:05 life work better. 21:10 Any comments or questions that our studio group might have 21:15 for what you just heard? 21:18 FEMALE VOICE: One of the things that I would really 21:19 like to come away from this with is how to instill 21:23 assertiveness ideals and techniques for my children? 21:27 I have teenage children and I think that being able to stand 21:31 up for yourself is such an incredibly important part of 21:34 your mental health. 21:36 And I would really like to be able to teach them to do that. 21:40 And not having been reared that way it is really tough to 21:44 know exactly what to do ? How to empower them. 21:48 ALBERTI: You know I remember a circumstance when I was very 21:51 young and I have thought often about how much that might have 21:54 to do with my own assertiveness. 21:56 I was in a school situation in which the 21:58 classroom was just chaos. 22:00 And I transferred to the school fairly recently and I 22:03 was attending there with a cousin. 22:05 And my mother when I told her the story of what was going 22:07 on, came to the school, spoke to the principal, and some 22:10 changes were made. 22:11 And that story stuck with me as a pretty clear message that 22:15 we can change things. 22:17 That things are not immutable, things are not unchangeable if 22:20 we express ourselves, if we say something about it. 22:22 And I think that is one way that you very effectively, I 22:25 think, offer your children some of that empowerment is by 22:28 being a model for them. 22:30 And being a model is one of the things we 22:31 will talk about, too. 22:33 When they see you do it, they see, gee, it can be done? 22:36 Look at what mom just did. 22:37 And I can do that now and later. 22:40 And you can also, of course, reward them when they do do 22:43 that, including when they do it with you, and that's tough. 22:46 FEMALE VOICE: It embarrasses the heck out of them. 22:48 MALE VOICE: I find myself to be less assertive now than I 22:52 was earlier in my age. 22:55 I lost a lot of it. 22:57 I don't know why? It's because I have been hurt. 23:00 I put myself in positions to be hurt. 23:02 And I would like to gain it back because I was very 23:06 assertive at one point in my life. 23:08 And I find myself to be less assertive now than I ever was. 23:11 And it is somewhat downplayed and I don't like it. 23:15 Because I like to? 23:17 I'm aggressive and I like to speak up 23:18 without hurting someone. 23:20 And I know I would like to get it back. 23:22 ALBERTI: Well we will talk a little bit more, of course, 23:24 about those differences. 23:25 But the thing that strikes me is that obviously if you have 23:27 been there then you can be there again. 23:29 And it helps to emphasize one of the elements that we all 23:32 should be thinking about and that is the fact that we are 23:34 talking about behavior rather than something that is a 23:37 characteristic of persons. 23:38 We are not talking about something that 23:39 you are born with. 23:41 You have the good fortune to be born African-American, I 23:44 had the good fortune to be born Anglo, Sammy Sosa had the 23:47 good fortune to be born Hispanic, those 23:49 are immutable things. 23:50 Those are unchangeable things. 23:51 But assertiveness is a learned thing. 23:53 That is something that we can develop over time. 23:55 We can learn the skills, we can apply the skills and I 23:58 think it is important to recognize. 24:00 MALE VOICE: Why was mine lost? 24:01 ALBERTI: I can't tell you. 24:02 You have gone through a lot of life circumstances that I am 24:04 not familiar with, of course, and those kinds of things can 24:07 inhibit you. 24:07 But it is circumstantial. 24:09 It is something that can change over time in both 24:13 directions. 24:14 But the fact is that it is not characteristic of you as a 24:18 person necessarily to be assertive or of me or of 24:20 anyone else. 24:21 It is characteristic of the behavior that we exhibit, in 24:23 particular circumstances. 24:25 And those circumstances are different with every person, 24:27 with timing, with the setting, what's going on there. 24:30 What's the context. 24:32 MALE VOICE: Thank you. 24:33 MALE VOICE: Is it possible to instill assertiveness in say a 24:38 partner or a husband or a wife once we have the techniques 24:44 built and we are implementing them every day, it may leave 24:48 the other individual say in the marriage at a loss. 24:53 Is it possible for us to help them learn 24:57 techniques in being assertive? 25:00 Or is that something that is best left to individual or 25:03 group one-one-one therapy or something? 25:08 ALBERTI: Well, it's a very good question. 25:10 I think it is possible to help others to become assertive 25:13 just as I was suggesting in terms of dealing with a child. 25:16 It is more difficult I think in the circumstance you 25:19 describe where it is a partner, someone with whom you 25:22 are very close and intimate and who is also an adult. 25:25 But I think that you can certainly encourage it, you 25:28 can certainly reward it when you see it, and you can 25:31 certainly demonstrate it. 25:33 As far as actually teaching it, I'm not going to tell you 25:36 that it is impossible. 25:37 I think it is possible for all of us? You don't have to be a 25:39 professional therapist to be able to teach someone else 25:42 assertive skills. 25:43 But it is going to be more difficult unless that person 25:46 first of all has expressed interest in 25:49 becoming more assertive. 25:49 And that is true of any big change in human behavior. 25:52 That person has to want to change. 25:54 FEMALE VOICE: In my recovery assertiveness has been one of 25:59 the upmost things that I have had to learn. 26:02 And it is a balance of taking care of myself. 26:07 There are times when I need to say no to take care of myself 26:10 so that I don't get worn out or so that I am not doing 26:14 things that are not conducive to my sobriety. 26:17 And again those were not skills that I was 26:21 taught early on. 26:23 And I guess that is kind of the way I look at it. 26:25 I think assertiveness is more what is good for me. 26:30 And when I am good for me I am good for anyone else. 26:32 ALBERTI: Yes, in fact if you are not good for you, you 26:34 can't be good for anyone else. 26:35 FEMALE VOICE: Exactly. 26:36 Exactly. 26:37 And I think it is a really essential tool to learn. 26:42 ALBERTI: And a lot of that has to do with being able to make 26:44 the choices that support, in your case, 26:45 sobriety for example. 26:47 And it may not necessarily just be saying no when someone 26:50 asks would you like a drink or pressures you even a little 26:53 bit, but it may be making the choice not to go down the 26:56 street where the old friendly bar is that you have been 26:59 spending your time in over the last number of years and that 27:01 is right on your way home. 27:03 You don't go that way anymore. 27:04 You choose to take an alternate route. 27:05 And that symbol of choosing to take an alternate route maybe 27:08 something that you can apply to a lot of different 27:09 circumstances. 27:11 One of the things that struck me as I was observing some of 27:14 the comments that you have all made about some of the 27:18 situations in your lives was some of the 27:22 themes that appear there. 27:23 And I think it is fairly clear that you have dealt, and many 27:29 of you have dealt in very effective ways. 27:31 Many of you have concerns about this. 27:32 But what I am seeing in this particular group is a bunch of 27:35 people who have done a lot already to empower themselves 27:38 and I am excited about working with you and I hope that I can 27:40 offer you some tools to carry that job along and to being to 27:44 enhance some of the experiences that you are going 27:52 to have with your future. 27:53 Now we have been talking about the differences between 27:55 assertion and aggression and non-assertion. 27:57 And one of the things I would like for us to focus on in 28:00 this particular skill session is a very graphic way of 28:03 looking at those three styles of behavior. 28:05 You remember as we were talking about it previously, 28:08 they are styles of behavior, not necessarily styles of 28:11 being a person. 28:13 We talk sometimes and I do it myself as often as I have 28:15 talked about assertiveness over the years, about an 28:18 assertive person or a non-assertive person or an 28:20 aggressive person. 28:21 For the most part we all have non-assertive times and we all 28:25 have assertive times and aggressive times. 28:27 We behave in those ways. 28:30 We behave non-assertively or aggressively or assertively. 28:33 Let me try to run down real quickly what I like to call 28:36 components of behavior. 28:37 I think? And you have a list of them there in front of you. 28:40 A group of specific behaviors that you can think about when 28:44 you are talking about trying to be assertive and trying to 28:46 change yourself in particular situations. 28:49 The first of them and the most obvious of them perhaps is eye 28:51 contact.Do you look at the other person appropriately? 28:54 The second is body posture. 28:56 Do you maintain an appropriate stance in relationship to the 28:59 other person? 29:00 Gestures. 29:01 I speak a lot with my hands as I mentioned because I am 29:04 Italian heritage and it feels comfortable for me to do that. 29:07 But there are times when gestures can be menacing. 29:10 They can be aggressive. 29:11 And obviously there are times when you can use them to 29:14 accent appropriately, or by not gesturing at all you may 29:17 appear to be too reticent. 29:19 So gestures are an important element. 29:21 Your facial expression, how you look, can be a glare if it 29:24 is aggressive, can't it? 29:24 Or it can be "poor me" if it is a 29:27 non-assertive kind of style. 29:29 Your voice is obviously a very important element; The tone of 29:32 your voice, the inflection, the volume of your voice. 29:34 All of those aspects go into how you communicate in 29:37 addition of course to what you are saying. 29:40 The distance or contact you have with the other person. 29:44 If you get really close and kind of in the person's face, 29:46 that makes a difference. 29:47 If you lean in, for example, you communicate something 29:50 differently than if you lean away. 29:52 All right, let us think about the fluency of your words. 29:57 Notice how I am a little hesitant right there? 29:59 That is a lack of fluency. 30:01 If I am not talking smoothly and not fluent, that makes a 30:04 difference in terms of how I communicate. 30:06 Timing is another element. 30:07 The timing in terms of the spontaneity of your response 30:11 or selecting a particularly appropriate time and we will 30:13 talk some more specifically about what timing means. 30:17 The aspect of listening, are you hearing the other person 30:23 is an important element of your communication. 30:26 You really hear what the other person says and respond 30:28 appropriately. 30:29 Finally, and not unimportantly but a lot less important than 30:32 we often consider it to be is the content? What you say. 30:35 And I think it is an easy way to remember this process: It 30:39 is a lot more important how you say it. 30:41 It's not what you say, it's how you say it. 30:43 But nevertheless what you say, of course, is important. 30:45 So content is an element that has to be considered. 30:47 And we will talk a lot more about content as we go along. 30:50 So those are the ten elements. 30:51 Look over that list again. 30:52 Pay some attention to exactly what it means to you to think 30:56 in terms of eye contact and posture and gestures and 30:58 facial expression and voice and fluency and distance and 31:02 listening and content. 31:04 And do consider the effect of those on your communication. 31:08 All right, what I would like to do is ask for a specific 31:11 illustration that will help us to 31:13 illustrate that real clearly. 31:14 We are going to do a little vignette and have a couple of 31:16 you get involved. 31:17 And I wonder if maybe there is a situation that would be 31:19 appropriate to the 31:20 circumstance that I just described. 31:22 Touching is a real pervasive thing in our society? Touch 31:25 or no touch as far as that goes ? And I am wondering if 31:27 maybe somebody outside the work situation, somebody who 31:30 has a situation you can think of outside of the work 31:32 environment. 31:33 Is there anything? 31:35 CAPRI: I've got one. 31:37 ALBERTI: Go ahead. 31:38 CAPRI: When I was early on in recovery, a part of recovery 31:43 when the meetings are over, et cetera, everyone would hug the 31:48 other members. 31:49 And there was a situation where there was a very 31:52 inappropriate hugging. 31:53 ALBERTI: Oh, that's a good example of touching. 31:56 And it was actually in a recovery group? 31:59 CAPRI: It was in a recovery group. 32:00 I felt very uncomfortable. 32:03 ALBERTI: Okay, can you tell us just enough about the other 32:05 person and we might find somebody in the group who can 32:07 maybe do that role? 32:08 CAPRI: Well the other person was an older man, and I think 32:13 he had maybe 15 years of recovery. 32:16 ALBERTI: Oh, so he had been in the group a long time. 32:17 He really knew the territory. 32:18 CAPRI: Exactly. 32:19 And at that time I might have had maybe 32:20 one month of recovery. 32:23 ALBERTI: Oh, you were a newbie. 32:24 CAPRI: And I thought it was kind of hard to tell him, "I 32:28 "don't like this, this feels uncomfortable." And I felt 32:31 real intimidated and uncomfortable 32:33 all at the same time. 32:34 ALBERTI: Well let's try to use that. 32:36 I think it is a really good example and I assume the rest 32:38 of you can relate to a similar kind of thing and we have 32:40 talked about the business of touching. 32:42 Without trying to stereotype, Fred, you and I are the guys 32:45 in the room who share the characteristic of older man, 32:49 the gray hair on top. 32:50 Would you be willing to take the role of that person and 32:52 set that up? 32:53 FRED: Sure. 32:53 ALBERTI: Okay, great. 32:54 Why don't the two of you come up, leave your notes there. 32:56 And come up here and let's try that scene out and see if we 33:01 can't do the same kind of thing that we were doing in 33:03 the earlier ones just as an example. 33:06 So, step up a little bit closer to the 33:08 group if you would. 33:09 And give us an idea of how you would respond to it now and be 33:13 as natural as you can. 33:15 If you want to be more assertive than you were then, 33:16 that's fine. 33:17 But just give us an idea of how you respond and we will 33:19 give you a chance to try it again, if you like. 33:21 CAPRI: This is in a recovery group? 33:22 ALBERTI: Yeah. 33:23 You are in a group session and Fred is going to come up to 33:26 you and he is going to play his usual number. 33:30 FEMALE VOICE: Go Fred! 33:31 CAPRI: Basically that is how I used to do, earlier recovery. 33:49 11 years later? 33:50 ALBERTI: Now show us the different approach. 33:52 CAPRI: I would say, when I saw Fred coming I would say? 33:57 I don't know what I would do but I? 33:59 ALBERTI: Fred is going to come after you the 34:05 same way once again. 34:07 CAPRI: Ahhhh! 34:07 ALBERTI: Okay, now a third way. 34:09 I want you to respond in a more assertive style? Some of 34:12 the things we have talked about. 34:14 CAPRI: Fred, you know what, you know what as one 34:22 recovering person to the next, and I know I remember when I 34:25 was early in recovery, I felt very offended the way you were 34:28 hugging me. 34:29 And I'm sure if you did it to me, you are doing it to a lot 34:31 of other ladies. 34:32 And it is kind of frightening and it is very inappropriate. 34:35 And I think that you know what you are doing. 34:39 And you've got too much time to do the newcomer like that. 34:43 Because I feel uncomfortable and I'm sure that the other 34:47 women do, too. 34:49 ALBERTI: Okay, let's stop there. 34:50 I'm not sure if everybody could hear you. 34:53 I could barely hear you. 34:55 I don't know how our video audience was able to hear you. 34:58 But you were talking very, very softly. 35:00 And it was an intimate situation and that is perhaps, 35:03 understandable under the circumstances, but you were 35:04 talking so softly, I'm wondering what the 35:06 effect on Fred was. 35:08 Did you have a sense of a firm message, a firm sense of 35:10 limits about what she was trying to say? 35:12 FRED: Not terribly. 35:14 ALBERTI: Okay, tell her why not. 35:16 FRED: Ah, you seemed a little bit intimidated when you were 35:18 telling me what you were telling me. 35:21 CAPRI: Hmm. 35:22 FRED: I think that listening to your words and the content 35:25 of your words I got the message but I think that the 35:28 way you said it was somewhat shy, maybe a little bit 35:33 passive on your part. 35:35 CAPRI: Okay. 35:36 ALBERTI: Okay, and specifically I referred to her 35:39 voice volume. 35:41 Was there anything else that you felt about? 35:42 FRED: I think that the way I would have taken it, I think I 35:47 took it a little bit personally like I was trying 35:48 to do a number on you and that you felt that I was trying to 35:52 do a number on? Or you were making the assumption that I 35:55 was trying to do a number on some of the other younger 35:58 women in the group. 35:59 ALBERTI: Something in what she said. 36:00 FRED: And I think that there were some 36:01 assumptions in what she said. 36:03 There were some assumptions in what you said that may or may 36:05 not have been true. 36:06 ALBERTI: Okay, let's try it one more time. 36:07 Let's try it one more time with that feedback, Capri, and 36:10 focus on a couple of things. 36:11 Focus on a little bit more conversational tone in your 36:14 voice, not quite so intimate sounding almost. 36:17 Kind of a double message there in a sense. 36:19 I like you, I want us to have a kind of a closeness, but 36:23 this is really not appropriate. 36:24 So there was some stuff there that may have 36:26 been a double message. 36:27 And I think that, again, Fred's point is that it was 36:32 not a real clear limits kind of a statement. 36:36 And put some of it perhaps back onto him. 36:38 Maybe some of what Tim suggested. 36:39 FEMALE VOICE: What about speaking 36:40 for all of the newcomers. 36:41 Speak for yourself. 36:43 CAPRI: Right, I was giving a double message. 36:45 And like you said, there was a lot of assumptions going on. 36:48 And it was. 36:49 And I think I was relaying a double message. 36:53 ALBERTI: Make it "I"? Respond to Fred in that way. 36:56 We'll do it one more time, okay. 36:59 CAPRI: Fred. 37:01 Fred, when you come and hug me like you hug me, I'm 37:06 uncomfortable with that. 37:07 And I don't like it. 37:08 FRED: Why? 37:09 CAPRI: Because it makes me feel uncomfortable. 37:12 It makes me feel like you are coming onto me. 37:14 And I don't like it. 37:16 I value our friendship, however, I don't like the way 37:20 you hug me. 37:21 Now if you can't change it, we can just shake, all right? 37:27 FRED: Okay. 37:28 ALBERTI: Okay, okay. 37:30 Much more firm, much more direct. 37:32 It seemed to me to be much more setting the limit and yet 37:36 maintaining an appropriate kind of friendship 37:38 establishing that in terms of both what you said and the way 37:41 you were presenting yourself. 37:42 The levels of your voice, those kinds of things. 37:44 Fred, how did it feel to you? 37:46 FRED: It seemed more direct. 37:49 CAPRI: Did it? 37:50 FRED: Yeah. 37:51 I don't think that the way you said that this most recent 37:54 time I didn't? 37:56 I was getting a lot of mixed messages the first time where 37:59 I didn't get that the second time. 38:02 The second time you told me is that the way that I had been 38:05 hugging you made you feel uncomfortable and that you 38:09 would be more comfortable shaking hands, period. 38:12 ALBERTI: Good, yeah, okay, you got it across, 38:15 Capri, quite well. 38:16 Any particular feedback from the group real quickly on this 38:18 particular? 38:19 DARRELL: Yes, Fred's expression the first time, 38:23 Fred gave the expression like, I'm just assuming, like, "What" 38:28 "the hell is she standing up here telling me?" You know, 38:30 that is the expression on his face. 38:33 He's like, where is this coming from? 38:36 Hugging you? 38:38 Where is the? 38:41 This was me reading your face. 38:42 And like to her, like, gosh, what have I done wrong? 38:46 She's coming off to me, telling me that me hugging her 38:48 ? It was just your expression. 38:50 Because you didn't say it and you were still just looking 38:52 directly at her and it was so cold. 38:55 See, we can all interpret it the way we see it. 38:59 That's how I saw it, you know. 39:01 To me it looked like "I don't care any way." Okay? 39:08 ALBERTI: Okay, thanks, Darrell. 39:10 Anybody else have a comment? 39:14 Okay, do you have a sense, Capri, of a change in your 39:19 style over those three times that you were 39:21 responding to Fred? 39:23 CAPRI: Definitely. 39:23 ALBERTI: Do you think it is something that you could use 39:25 in terms of if a situation happened to you again? 39:29 I mean obviously you are no longer a newbie, perhaps, but 39:31 perhaps you might have a more comfortable 39:33 response to that situation. 39:36 CAPRI: My pitch. 39:36 The pitch. 39:37 ALBERTI: Okay, that helps. 39:40 And I think you were a little more fluent the last time. 39:43 The first time there were a lot of long pauses, a lot of 39:45 hesitation. 39:45 And I know a lot of that is trying to get the words to 39:47 come out the way you want them to be. 39:49 And that is going to be a part of a situation like that. 39:51 But, again, the third time you were clear about setting 39:55 limits and that's, I think, what was real clear there. 39:57 The first time you weren't quite sure? 39:59 You knew what you wanted somewhere inside but you 40:01 didn't have it quite in your head yet. 40:02 CAPRI: And then what threw me, when he said, "Why?" I'm like, 40:06 where did that come from? 40:07 And then you were talking about how you try to think of 40:10 the right words to say, and he says, "Well why?" So then I 40:13 have to tell you, and that kind of threw me. 40:16 ALBERTI: I understand. 40:17 Okay, thank you both very much. 40:19 Let me suggest in terms of right words that, again, there 40:23 aren't always the right words. 40:24 And the important thing is to get out that feeling of 40:27 discomfort. 40:28 A word that I like in situations like that that I 40:30 really don't know what? 40:33 Maybe I'm not sure what my feelings are. 40:34 Maybe they are anger. 40:35 Maybe they are fear. 40:36 I'm not sure what the circumstances may be. 40:38 Is to say I am uncomfortable about this. 40:40 Uncomfortable is a word that works across a lot of 40:42 situations and you can start with that. 40:44 These kinds of situations are always difficult to deal with 40:48 in a very short time. 40:49 And of course when we are, particularly with respect to 40:51 the people in our video audience, to try to give them 40:54 some kind of specific idea of the situations and the way 40:57 that they can handle themselves, the way that they 40:59 can use the non-verbal components, and also the 41:01 verbal, of course, is tough in a very brief period of time. 41:05 But I think you get an idea from this of the importance of 41:08 the way that you come across physically, the various 41:11 aspects of components. 41:12 We have talked about eye contact and posture and 41:13 gestures and so on. 41:14 And I think that as we go on you can use those more and 41:17 more in your practice and I think in your practice of 41:20 being assertive and that I think the folks that are 41:23 watching this on the video will also find that this is 41:27 instructive and that will find that they are more sensitive 41:29 now to looking at those aspects of their behavior. 41:32 And that's what we hope this will accomplish. 41:36 All right, as we are trying to deal with the issue of shaping 41:40 your behavior according to the specific components, what I 41:42 would like to suggest to those of you who are watching this 41:44 on video is that there are some things that you can do, 41:47 perhaps if you are in a groups setting, for example, you can 41:50 use the group in the same way that I have worked with the 41:52 group here and get feedback from the members of the group. 41:54 You get a diverse audience. 41:55 They have different perspectives. 41:56 It gives you a chance to look at your own behavior through 41:59 the eyes of other people. 42:00 That is one very powerful way that you can use this process 42:05 to change and shape your own behavior. 42:07 Second possibility if you don't happen to be 42:09 working in a group. 42:09 Perhaps you are working alone. 42:11 Here's an opportunity for you to take advantage of friend or 42:14 family member who might be able to 42:15 give you good feedback. 42:16 Obviously you don't want to choose the friend or family 42:18 member that you might want to be dealing with in an 42:20 assertive way, but very often there is someone in your 42:23 immediate environment who can help you with some of the 42:26 components of behavior. 42:27 And you can be specific and help that person to recognize 42:29 that here are ten aspects of behavior and I would like to 42:32 really have you be honest with me about describing how I come 42:36 across in terms of my eye contact and my posture and my 42:38 gestures and so on. 42:40 If you don't have either a group or a friend or family 42:42 member you can work with, one of the opportunities in 42:45 today's technology is of course video cameras. 42:47 And they are widely available. 42:49 Even if you don't have one personally you may be able to 42:51 borrow one from a friend. 42:52 Or use one in some sort of a public setting at a school or 42:55 somewhere to try yourself out. 42:56 To look as I am looking now at a video camera and to try in a 43:00 sort of action and then watch yourself and see 43:02 how you come across. 43:03 See whether your eyes are downcast. 43:05 See whether you are looking directly into the camera. 43:07 See whether you are using appropriate gestures and 43:09 whether your expression is consistent. 43:12 If you are trying to express anger, for example, and you 43:14 are talking through a big smile it doesn't sound very 43:16 angry to the other person. 43:17 So I think those kinds of things are very important and 43:19 I hope you will take advantage of that and ways to work on 43:22 the specific components of behavior that 43:39 we have talked about. 43:41 CARLSON: What did you learn from this first activity on 43:52 non-verbal communication? 43:54 MALE VOICE: I was very surprised. 43:58 Being that we were talking about touch, I 44:00 happen to be a toucher. 44:01 And I didn't realize how offensive that could be just 44:08 by an aggressive action, whether it is intended or not. 44:13 It is how it is perceived. 44:15 And I need to look at alternate methods to get the 44:22 point through that I am attempting. 44:24 CARLSON: So something that you never questioned as being 44:26 negative, always thought as positive. 44:28 MALE VOICE: And I know there was negative touch, sexual 44:31 harassment or something to that effect. 44:34 But as a friendly demeanor I didn't think much about it. 44:38 CARLSON: Who else? 44:41 FEMALE VOICE: I was a little surprised. 44:42 I have always been told that I look rather stern, but I am 44:47 intimidating. 44:48 And I am surprised at how much I have used 44:53 that to get my way. 44:54 I mean I could see from the setups what I would have done 44:58 and it would have been a look and that 44:59 would have been enough. 45:00 And that's not okay. 45:01 That is really not okay. 45:03 And it's not getting my needs met. 45:05 And I am really grateful to see that. 45:07 I don't know how I am going to change it, but I know that it 45:12 is not assertive at all. 45:13 It's not. 45:14 And it is not okay. 45:15 So, I'm glad that I got that. 45:18 CARLSON: Who else? 45:19 FEMALE VOICE: I think what I got was an understanding that 45:22 there are different perceptions. 45:24 And I think what you said is let's not focus on the right 45:27 or wrong, let's just focus on that there is a different 45:30 perception. 45:31 There are times that maybe someone in this group might 45:33 touch my shoulder and I won't be offended. 45:36 This person at work, yes I am. 45:38 I don't particularly like the person. 45:41 And it is being open to, I think, where other people are 45:44 coming from. 45:46 FEMALE VOICE: Well I think it is good for people to learn 45:48 how to be assertive because I think, say for instance with 45:52 the touching situation, I think they need to learn how 45:56 to be assertive and how to go about doing 45:59 it in a polite way. 46:00 I feel that if somebody is doing something to you that 46:04 makes you uncomfortable and you don't like it, I feel like 46:07 you shouldn't have to hold it in because you don't know how 46:10 to tell the person or you are afraid to hurt their feeling, 46:12 because in the meantime you are holding stuff in that 46:15 makes you feel uncomfortable. 46:16 So I think it is good to learn how to be assertive and it is 46:19 not what you do but how you do it. 46:22 You can get your point across. 46:24 CARLSON: Well this was really an important lesson, Bob. 46:26 So often we just take this for granted. 46:28 We think of communication, we only think about words and yet 46:32 the non-verbal part is so powerful. 46:34 Can you take us into now moving into the verbal part of 46:38 assertiveness. 46:39 ALBERTI: You know, Jon, it's true that we live in a very 46:42 verbal culture and we do think primarily of words and I 46:45 didn't know what to say is the usual reason why people say 46:48 they don't assert themselves. 46:49 So what we want to talk about now that we have dealt with 46:51 these non-verbal components, are some of the ways that we 46:54 can approach refusing and other aspects of communication 46:58 in a verbal way. 46:59 And there are going to be a couple of key elements that we 47:01 are going to deal with there. 47:02 One of them is simply saying, "No." One of them is learning 47:05 how to feel comfortable just with the word, "No." And we 47:12 will talk about that specifically. 47:13 Okay, one of the things that we have talked about and 47:16 hinted about a little bit and it is time now for us to get 47:19 serious about it, and that is the verbal aspect of assertive 47:22 communication. 47:23 We have spoken about the various elements and 47:25 components of behavior on a non-verbal level. 47:27 We have dealt a little bit and somewhat indirectly with the 47:30 idea of verbal aspects. 47:32 What you say is not unimportant. 47:34 I try to deemphasize it some because we tend to 47:36 over-emphasize it a bit. 47:37 It is an issue that needs to be dealt with. 47:39 And there are various ways in which we can. 47:41 And let me outline three of those very quickly and then we 47:44 will focus in on one of them. 47:46 One of the important things about being assertive is to be 47:49 able to say no, to set limits. 47:51 And we have talked about it in terms of touch. 47:52 We have talked about it in terms of situations in which 47:55 we find ourselves in life every day being able to say no 47:59 clearly and firmly in a way that doesn't put the other 48:01 person down is a very key assertive skill and one that 48:03 we will focus on here this morning. 48:05 But we also want to be concerned about the 48:07 possibility that there are going to be times that you 48:10 will want to do something more positive by way of 48:12 assertiveness. 48:13 And so, take a look for a moment at 48:15 your blue sheets here. 48:18 The page that starts out "assertiveness includes." And 48:21 I would call your attention. 48:22 There are a whole series of ways in which we can express 48:25 ourselves assertively in life. 48:26 Saying no is one of them, of course, and it is 48:28 an important one. 48:29 But it is certainly not the only one. 48:30 Reaching out to others. 48:32 Giving and receiving compliments. 48:34 Giving and receiving criticism. 48:36 We talked a little bit about the boss who needs to 48:38 criticize an employee? Picking the right timing for 48:40 doing that. 48:41 The whole area of things that you can do for yourself. 48:46 Ways of enhancing your life. 48:49 Paths that you can take; Making choices for yourself. 48:52 Very, very important aspect of being assertive. 48:55 Asking favors of others. 48:57 And being able to refuse favors if they are 49:00 unreasonable or if for some legitimate reason 49:03 you can't do them. 49:05 If I recall correctly it may have been Phyllis who said 49:07 something last night about babysitting. 49:09 And maybe that would be a good example for us to work on here 49:12 this morning. 49:14 All right, job interview skills. 49:16 Being assertive in a job interview can be very 49:17 important in terms of how you express yourself. 49:19 Think of it in terms of the non-verbal components. 49:21 If you are sitting there in an interview looking down like 49:22 this and mumbling, obviously you are not going to make a 49:25 terrific impression. 49:26 So that is another way you can use your assertive skills. 49:29 Requesting that others change in some way. 49:32 Again, perhaps the setting limits in terms of the 49:35 touching situation, but there are lots of ways in which you 49:37 might want others to change. 49:39 Now, the fact that you request it doesn't mean that you 49:41 deserve to have it or that the other person 49:43 will make the change. 49:44 But it is important to recognize that 49:46 it is okay to ask. 49:48 That you can express yourself in that way and it is okay for 49:51 the other person to say yes or no. 49:52 So, those kinds of things. 49:54 Finally, again, expressing your opinions, your feelings, 49:57 your ideas. 49:57 Perhaps you are involved in some sort of an organization. 50:00 And you think you have something to say about how 50:02 things are run or the ways in which the 50:04 organization focuses its goals. 50:06 Those are all ways that you can express yourself 50:08 assertively. 50:09 So I don't' want to suggest that saying no or refusal 50:11 skills are the most important or the only way in which one 50:15 can be assertive. 50:16 But I do want to emphasize the breadth of ways in which you 50:20 can apply these skills in your life. 50:22 However, we have to consider the limits of time, yours, 50:26 mine and that of the video camera, and so let's focus in 50:30 on that specific skill of saying no. 50:33 All right, what I would like to do is have each of you 50:37 think about a situation in your own lives that might give 50:40 you an opportunity to say no. 50:44 And see if you come up with something better than what I 50:46 have in my head at the moment. 50:51 Picture yourself at an organization 50:54 meeting of some sort. 50:56 And at the end of the time somebody in the group says, 51:00 "Would you give me a ride home?" And just think in terms 51:04 of how far away this person might be, maybe in the 51:07 opposite direction. 51:08 You know you live on the north side and this person lives 51:10 down in Madison or something. 51:11 And so are you going to be willing to do that? 51:16 You've got things that you need to do at home, you want 51:18 to get there. 51:19 This person is going to ask and you want to say no. 51:21 Can you do that? 51:24 Another situation that occurs to you about saying no. 51:27 Well, for example, Phyllis's situation about babysitting. 51:30 You want to be able to say no to this person. 51:32 Can you do that? 51:33 What is it about saying no? 51:34 What is so difficult about saying no? 51:37 Why is it so hard to just say no? 51:39 PHYLLIS: Well I guess a lot of time you don't want to hurt 51:41 the person's feelings. 51:42 ALBERTI: You don't want to hurt the person's feelings. 51:43 Good one, Phyllis. 51:44 FEMALE VOICE: Afraid they won't like you. 51:45 ALBERTI: Afraid they won't like you. 51:46 Okay. 51:46 What else can you happen if you say? 51:48 Rejection, okay. 51:49 LOUISA: General concern that they may not be able to get 51:51 home safely. 51:52 ALBERTI: Okay, some concern for the other person. 51:54 Very legitimate Louisa, thank you. 51:56 Okay, other ideas about what is tough about saying? 51:58 FEMALE VOICE: Worried about ruining my image as a caring, 52:00 loving person. 52:01 ALBERTI: There you go. 52:02 What happens if I say no to people. 52:04 Are they going to think I don't care, that I am not a 52:06 very nice person. 52:07 Okay. 52:08 Anything else? 52:09 All of those things get in the way of saying no. 52:11 Well let me suggest to you that first of all you have a 52:14 right to say no. 52:15 That you have a right, just as you have a right with touch 52:18 and with other things, you have a right to set limits for 52:20 your own life. 52:21 And so you do have a right to say no. 52:23 And sometimes you need to remember that no 52:26 is a complete sentence. 52:28 It doesn't require a verb. 52:31 It doesn't require a subject. 52:33 It doesn't require anything else. 52:34 It is a complete sentence. 52:35 It is an answer. 52:37 Somebody has in some way asked you for something that you 52:40 don't care to give. 52:41 And it is okay to say no. 52:43 Let's use, I think perhaps the most illustrative example that 52:49 I can come up with at the moment unless somebody has a 52:51 really good idea, is Phyllis's about the babysitting thing, 52:54 because that is a real pressure situation. 52:56 This is a family thing but it just isn't working for you to 52:59 be able to do that the way you described it briefly when we 53:01 talked before. 53:02 So here is a situation which somebody that you care about, 53:05 family member says, "Would you sit with the children while I" 53:09 "do," whatever, and your situation is, hey, that is 53:12 really going to infringe on my needs. 53:14 I have some other things in my life going on right now. 53:16 I need to be able to say no. 53:17 Okay. 53:18 What I want you to do Phyllis, if you would, would you come 53:21 up with me for just a moment? 53:22 And let's just do that one. 53:25 And what I want you to do when I ask is say, "No," that's. 53:31 No excuse. 53:32 Nothing else. 53:33 Just say no. Okay? 53:35 Phyllis, I have to make a run into town this afternoon. 53:37 I've got several errands to do. 53:38 Will you watch the kids for awhile? 53:39 PHYLLIS: No. 53:39 ALBERTI: No? 53:39 PHYLLIS: I can't. 53:43 ALBERTI: You wouldn't? 53:43 PHYLLIS: I can't. 53:44 ALBERTI: You can't? 53:45 Why can't you? 53:49 PHYLLIS: Because I don't feel like it. 53:53 ALBERTI: Gosh! 53:53 Okay, how did that feel? 53:56 To say no. 53:57 PHYLLIS: Good. 53:59 ALBERTI: Sometimes you get that feeling in the pit of 54:00 your stomach when you exercise that right to say no. 54:03 Okay, anything you noticed about the way that Phyllis did 54:06 that the way she responded. 54:07 CAPRI: She almost chocked. 54:09 The second time, did you see, because it is so, for real, 54:11 when she says no it is like she didn't believe herself. 54:14 And you said, "Why?" and she is like, "I don't feel like 54:15 "it." Or something. 54:16 But you could tell, you could see it up here. 54:20 No. 54:22 MALE VOICE: It took a lot of energy for her to say? 54:24 MALE VOICE: She was uncomfortable in saying no. 54:26 She said it but she wasn't comfortable. 54:28 Her actions didn't show. 54:30 ALBERTI: Are any of us comfortable saying no? 54:33 DARRELL: I am. 54:34 ALBERTI: It is a difficult thing to say. 54:35 FRED: I didn't like her response. 54:37 I don't feel like it ? It was weak. 54:40 It was not assertive to me. 54:43 I think no would have been more assertive and I think 54:46 there would have been a better answer, but it just sounds 54:50 defensive to me. 54:51 ALBERTI: Interesting. 54:51 Okay. 54:51 DARRELL: She felt afraid. 54:53 ALBERTI: There was an intervening statement that you 54:55 made as well, in addition to "I don't feel like it." Did 54:57 anybody pick that up? "I can't." Right. 54:59 She said, "I can't." And the fact is, it sounded as if you 55:03 probably could, but you didn't feel like it. 55:06 DARRELL: Right. 55:06 ALBERTI: Which you said later. 55:07 But "I can't" came in there. 55:09 PHYLLIS: Well I can't because I don't feel like it. 55:12 ALBERTI: But we often use "I can't" which is to say I am 55:15 not able when really it means, "I won't; I don't want to." It 55:18 is something that I have chosen. 55:20 But it is difficult to assert that choice isn't it? 55:24 It's difficult not to have some anchor there that says, 55:27 oh, this is? There is something else that is 55:29 preventing me from doing this and to be 55:31 able to lean on that. 55:32 That's a tough one, isn't it. 55:34 Okay, thanks Phyllis. 55:35 PHYLLIS: Mm-hmm. 55:35 ALBERTI: Go ahead, Louisa. 55:36 LOUISA: I have a question. 55:37 Does assertiveness and honesty necessarily need 55:40 to go hand in hand? 55:42 Can you be assertive and just lie your way through it? 55:46 ALBERTI: My goodness. 55:47 You certainly can. 55:50 But as far as I'm concerned, assertiveness and honesty go 55:53 hand in hand. 55:54 I think that is fundamental to what I consider to be 55:56 assertiveness. 55:57 I think of a flat out lying or what you are describing it as 56:00 being aggressive. 56:01 It could be non-assertive in a sense, but I think of it as 56:04 being aggressive just in terms of its intent. 56:07 Intent to deceive I think is kind of inherently aggressive. 56:10 But, you know, white lies are a part of our 56:13 culture, aren't they. 56:15 And sometimes more than what we consider to be a white lie; 56:18 Maybe a really heavy duty lie is not unusual in our society. 56:23 But I think it is unfortunate. 56:25 I think honesty in relationships is a much 56:26 healthier way to go. 56:28 And so I like to think of assertive as 56:30 being inherently honest. 56:31 But I suppose it is possible. 56:33 Did you have something specific in mind? 56:35 LOUISA: Well, I was just thinking that if someone asked 56:38 me for a ride home, and I wasn't going to go that far 56:42 out, I might say something, "You know what, the babysitter" 56:46 has to be home by ten and I am just not going to be able to," 56:51 instead of being the bad guy and saying, "No." 56:54 "I don't feel like it." That's, I guess I'm not very 56:59 assertive, especially when they find out I 57:03 don't have a baby. 57:05 ALBERTI: Okay, somebody over here. 57:07 LINDA: One of the things on here is asking favors. 57:10 That is assertive. 57:11 But, that isn't what I have done. 57:14 Asking favors is the last thing you want to have to do. 57:17 You don't mind people asking you favors but you don't? so 57:20 in Phyllis's situation, I wouldn't ask 57:22 anybody to watch my kids. 57:24 And so when that woman comes to me, I immediately get a 57:27 resentment because she is doing something that I 57:29 wouldn't do, although she is getting her needs met and, you 57:32 know, so all of that gets in there. 57:35 So you do go, "No." 57:38 ALBERTI: Come up, would you. 57:39 Phyllis, would you come back up. 57:41 Okay, would you ask Linda to watch the kids? 57:46 PHYLLIS: Okay. 57:47 ALBERTI: Just the same kind of situation, only you now are 57:49 the one with the kids to watch. 57:50 LINDA: Now all I have to do is say no, right? 57:52 ALBERTI: You respond however you want to do that. 57:54 That's okay. 57:55 Saying no is the exercise here, but if you have a better 57:57 way to do it, go right ahead. 57:59 PHYLLIS: Linda, I don't mean to both you. 58:00 I've got a real favor. 58:02 I really have to get somewhere and my sister 58:03 can't keep the kids. 58:04 Could you keep the kids for me please? 58:06 LINDA: No, Phyllis. 58:07 I can't keep the kids. 58:09 PHYLLIS: Oh, okay. 58:13 ALBERTI: Okay, what was that about? 58:14 LINDA: They always give up quick with me. 58:17 I never get a fight. 58:21 ALBERTI: Is there something about the way she did that 58:23 that just shut you down? 58:26 PHYLLIS: No, well basically she said no. 58:30 So, okay. 58:31 DARRELL: Where can go from there. 58:33 PHYLLIS: I just got to figure out something else. 58:35 ALBERTI: And you know, there is an important element there. 58:37 Think about a sales person. 58:38 Calls you on the telephone. 58:40 As soon as you give an excuse, as soon as you say it is too 58:43 far out of my way. 58:44 I've got something else going on. 58:46 Whatever else, you know, one of your responses might be if 58:50 you had something else going on one of her responses might 58:52 have been then, "Well, what are you going to do?" And you 58:54 said, "Well I have to go shopping." "Well take the kids 58:56 with you, that would be okay. 58:57 I can't take them with me, but you can take them with you 58:59 "shopping." You find some excuse and right away as soon 59:03 as there is an excuse you are going to jump on the excuse 59:05 just like a salesman is going to do. 59:06 Oh, well we can take care of that part. 59:08 You know, we will just write that in here and so on. 59:09 So... 59:10 LINDA: By saying no? 59:12 ALBERTI: There is no more opening. 59:13 LINDA: Right. 59:13 PHYLLIS: Okay. 59:14 ALBERTI: But, I realize, again, it is an abrupt 59:17 response, isn't it? 59:18 And it is kind of gut-wrenching. 59:19 CAPRI: And there is a need inside of us to 59:22 say something else. 59:23 So when we feel that need inside of us to say something 59:26 else, just repeat the request. 59:29 No, I cannot keep the kids as opposed to, no, 59:33 and something else. 59:34 So we need to put like an addendum to that? Repeat the 59:37 request, no, I cannot keep the kids. 59:40 Because you feel kind of funny just saying no and just repeat 59:45 the request as Linda did and it makes 59:48 it even more effective. 59:49 And then Phyllis couldn't say anything but she goes, "Oh." 59:52 Oh." 59:52 ALBERTI: I think Capri you have made a really important 59:57 point? To restate the original request is a good way 01:00:01 to respond. 01:00:01 I think sometimes it is important to recognize that, 01:00:04 again, the excuse would give the person a way to respond 01:00:08 too quickly. 01:00:08 But it is also possible that you can get yourself into 01:00:11 trouble by trying to sort of weasel around to give some 01:00:16 kind of a defense of yourself or to protect 01:00:20 yourself against that. 01:00:21 And I think to be able to say no clearly and firmly and to 01:00:24 repeat it if it is necessary. 01:00:26 Now you may need to anticipate in some circumstances, and I 01:00:29 am going to let you folks sit down. 01:00:30 I appreciate, again, your participation, that for 01:00:34 example in Phyllis's situation if this is in fact a family 01:00:37 member who is asking for this kind of favor, you can perhaps 01:00:39 anticipate that. 01:00:40 You know that some of the time that is going to come around. 01:00:43 And so you can think about it and say, all right, what is 01:00:45 the real reason that I don't want to keep the 01:00:47 kids at this time? 01:00:48 Is it because I have something else to do? 01:00:50 Is it because I really don't like spending time with these 01:00:52 youngsters? 01:00:53 Is it because the mother has expectations for me if I am to 01:00:58 keep the kids? 01:00:58 I have other things that she is expecting me to do? 01:01:01 Change diapers, whatever it might be in terms of the age. 01:01:04 But, you can expect that this is going to 01:01:07 happen and you can prepare. 01:01:09 You can plan and recognize what your real feelings are 01:01:12 and explain those to the other person. 01:01:14 And that helps. 01:01:14 And that carries it beyond just "no" 01:01:16 as a complete sentence. 01:01:17 But, in other circumstances there are going to be times 01:01:20 when people will surprise you with a question and it may be 01:01:22 something that you really don't feel like doing. 01:01:24 And it is okay, again, to set those limits, to 01:01:27 be able to say no. 01:01:29 I would like to carry it a little further and have a 01:01:31 couple of more folks come up and we will do a similar kind 01:01:33 of thing with one more exercise, one more sample. 01:01:36 Darrell, you had some real strong thoughts about being 01:01:40 able to say no and I was wondering if you would 01:01:41 participate in this one. 01:01:44 DARRELL: Yeah. 01:01:44 ALBERTI: Sue, do you have something? 01:01:45 SUE: I have another situation that I was going to? 01:01:47 ALBERTI: Go ahead, sure. 01:01:49 SUE: I was covering for a receptionist at work and a 01:01:52 salesperson came? We have an inner door and it 01:01:55 happened to be open. 01:01:56 And she came in and wanted to know if the operations manager 01:01:59 was available. 01:02:00 And I said, no, he is not, he's in a meeting. 01:02:02 And she first of all, I felt, invaded the office space by 01:02:06 coming through the inner door. 01:02:08 And then, secondly, her next question was, "Well, is he in" 01:02:12 a meeting with someone from inside the company or outside 01:02:15 "the company?" And I looked at her and I said, you know it 01:02:18 took me a minute to figure out how do I respond to this. 01:02:20 ALBERTI: Let me ask you to bring that up here and come up 01:02:22 with Darrell. 01:02:22 I know you two worked together earlier, but that's okay. 01:02:24 I think let's use that. 01:02:27 Darrell I am going to let you respond to that. 01:02:29 Let Sue present as this sales person and let's have you be 01:02:32 in the office. 01:02:32 And you are in a position now of wanting to say no here. 01:02:36 And let's see how you handle it. 01:02:38 Go ahead. 01:02:39 SUE: Is the operations manager available? 01:02:42 DARRELL: No. 01:02:44 Can I help you? 01:02:46 SUE: Well, can you tell me where he is? 01:02:49 DARRELL: At the present time I have no idea where he is. 01:02:51 Can I help you? 01:02:52 SUE: Well, no, I really was hoping to 01:02:53 speak with him directly. 01:02:55 DARRELL: No. 01:02:56 SUE: Do you know when he will be available? 01:02:58 DARRELL: No. 01:03:00 SUE: Okay, so I don't know where to go from that. 01:03:03 DARRELL: Yeah, he doesn't give you anywhere to go, does he? 01:03:04 SUE: No, no. 01:03:05 ALBERTI: And how are you feeling? 01:03:07 SUE: Pretty much stumped. 01:03:08 Like, well, okay, I'm not getting through this door. 01:03:10 ALBERTI: Stopped. 01:03:11 Yeah. 01:03:11 He was being the wall, wasn't he, which he was interpreting 01:03:14 as his job. 01:03:14 Okay, let me let you go back to your seats there. 01:03:18 Go ahead, Capri, do you have something else? 01:03:21 CAPRI: Oh, I was just saying, what Linda was saying was when 01:03:24 Darrell became himself, he gets closed off. 01:03:27 And that was a whole different other ballgame. 01:03:29 He is saying when he becomes himself he gets very 01:03:32 protective and he closes off, not the fact that, well, I've 01:03:35 got something else to do. 01:03:36 I was just noticing when I am playing a role I am open. 01:03:40 When I become to play me, I close up. 01:03:44 And it was interpreted a little bit different. 01:03:48 ALBERTI: That's good insight. 01:03:48 CAPRI: Mm-hmm. 01:03:49 ALBERTI: All right. 01:03:50 Another situation of involving saying no. 01:03:52 Maybe we can take one more and then we will try 01:03:54 to wind this up. 01:03:55 But I would like to have you have a sense of ways of saying 01:03:59 no that give you a sense of empowerment, a sense of 01:04:02 firmness about that. 01:04:03 Anything else. 01:04:04 Go ahead Louisa. 01:04:05 LOUISA: I worked with patients for a long time. 01:04:09 And there were problems especially with the young 01:04:11 adults where they wanted to hug you. 01:04:14 But they weren't children anymore. 01:04:17 And you are dealing with rejection and hurt feelings. 01:04:23 But it just wasn't appropriate. 01:04:26 ALBERTI: It kind of goes back to the hugging thing we were 01:04:29 doing earlier, does it, more or less in terms of setting 01:04:31 those limits. 01:04:32 LOUISA: Right, mm-hmm. 01:04:32 But people have problems with appropriateness anyway. 01:04:35 So I think, "No" wouldn't. 01:04:40 ALBERTI: Well maybe what we are really talking about in 01:04:42 this? Maybe a contextual thing? It involves the 01:04:46 situation, the context of who these people were and the 01:04:49 environment with which you are working with them. 01:04:51 Maybe the important aspect of this is to think in terms of 01:04:56 that limit setting behavior, but also to be aware enough of 01:05:00 yourselves, aware enough of your own desires, aware enough 01:05:03 of your own goals, aware enough of your own choices and 01:05:05 decisions, the things that are important to you. 01:05:08 So that when those times come, you can set those limits. 01:05:12 You recognize, Linda has used the term boundaries which is a 01:05:14 popular one these days I think. 01:05:16 What are the limits or boundaries that you 01:05:19 have in your life? 01:05:20 When it is okay for you to say no and when is it not? 01:05:23 With whom is it okay to say no and with whom is it not? 01:05:25 And then to recognize that, again, no 01:05:28 is a complete sentence. 01:05:29 And you can stop there. 01:05:31 You may want to go further if the relationship is important 01:05:34 to you, but if somebody approaches you on the street 01:05:36 and asks for money, no is very much a complete sentence. 01:05:40 Or if somebody is asking you to buy something that you 01:05:43 don't want, whether it happens to be a substance or whether 01:05:45 it happens to be telephone service or whether it happens 01:05:47 to be a refrigerator, no is a complete sentence. 01:05:50 And in fact you do the other person a favor because the 01:05:52 other person doesn't waste time then trying to sell you 01:05:54 on something that you are not willing to do. 01:05:57 So I think that is an important element, too, again, 01:05:58 in terms of being respectful of other people. 01:06:01 You start using excuses and you carry the thing out, and 01:06:04 it turns out to be not a positive experience 01:06:07 for either of you. 01:06:08 I think we all worry a little bit too much about how the 01:06:10 other person is going to feel if we say no. 01:06:12 And maybe we need to think more about the fact that we 01:06:15 are doing both of us a favor by simply saying no. 01:06:20 What I would like to suggest to those of you who are 01:06:22 looking at the video and working on your own is an 01:06:25 exercise in saying no that I think will work for you. 01:06:29 You might find a friend or family member, a buddy if you 01:06:33 will, to work with you in terms of the feedback process. 01:06:36 If you are not involved in a group or you are not involved 01:06:38 in some other way to get the feedback that our friends here 01:06:41 in the studio have been able to get with each other, you 01:06:44 find that someone in your environment is available to 01:06:46 you, someone you trust, and ask that person to help out. 01:06:50 Let him or her know that you are working on assertiveness 01:06:52 and one of the things that you want to practice is saying no. 01:06:55 And what you can do is ask the person to be ready the next 01:06:58 time he or she asks for a favor or asks you to do 01:07:00 something that you are going to say no. 01:07:02 Now you may eventually work it out that you will do it 01:07:04 anyway, but at least it will give you some practice in 01:07:06 saying no which is one of those things that as we have 01:07:09 talked about here is a very important assertive skill? 01:07:11 Being able to refuse an unreasonable request or not to 01:07:14 do something that you would rather not do is very much 01:07:17 your right and is something that you ought to practice and 01:07:49 give yourself an opportunity to learn and be 01:07:57 more effective at. 01:07:58 LEWIS: Now in just a minute we are going to ask you to talk 01:08:00 with us about what you learned in this session. 01:08:03 But first, let's take a minute and just go around the circle 01:08:07 of our audience here and ask you to start over here with 01:08:11 Darrell, go around the circle, and each of you give us one 01:08:15 big solid firm assertive no. 01:08:18 DARRELL: No. 01:08:20 PHYLLIS: No. 01:08:20 LOUISA: No. 01:08:21 FEMALE VOICE: No. 01:08:22 MALE VOICE: No. 01:08:23 SUE: No. 01:08:24 CAPRI: No. 01:08:25 LINDA: No. 01:08:26 FRED: No. 01:08:27 LEWIS: How did that feel? 01:08:29 DARRELL: It felt great to me. 01:08:30 LEWIS: That felt great? 01:08:32 I liked it, too. 01:08:33 Now, you know I never thought I would want to do just like 01:08:35 Nancy Reagan did with "Just Say No," but that did sound 01:08:38 pretty good. 01:08:40 Now let's just take a minute to ask what you learned from 01:08:43 the session that you just finished. 01:08:47 FEMALE VOICE: I like the part where you are able to just say 01:08:50 no without having an explanation behind it and I 01:08:54 think that is what I need to work on. 01:08:57 Not needing to back off or justify my no. 01:09:01 MALE VOICE: I agree with that myself. 01:09:03 FEMALE VOICE: Me, too. 01:09:05 LOUISA: Well I agree with that; That's the biggest 01:09:08 problem I've got. 01:09:11 LINDA: I know I have always felt a certain amount of guilt 01:09:13 and I think they wrote a book, "When I say no I feel guilty." 01:09:16 But when I think of saying no as a way of taking care of 01:09:19 myself, something good to do for myself, then I don't feel 01:09:24 so guilty about it. 01:09:25 And I seem to have gotten that today to protect myself 01:09:30 sometimes I need to say no. 01:09:33 LEWIS: So you feel now as if you have permission to say no 01:09:36 without having to feel guilty, without having to explain 01:09:39 yourself, without having to do anything else about that. 01:09:43 MALE VOICE: Yes. 01:09:45 FEMALE VOICE: I think I will still have to work on it. 01:09:48 I mean it's okay with somebody very close, it's still very 01:09:52 hard to just say no without some type of explanation. 01:09:56 I think it's a lot easier with people that you might have a 01:10:00 surface relationship with or no relationship with at all. 01:10:04 LEWIS: When it is not so much of a risk? 01:10:07 FEMALE VOICE: Correct. 01:10:07 ALBERTI: And we will talk in the next segment of some 01:10:10 specific steps in that process of working on it. 01:10:17 What we would like to do in this next segment is talk 01:10:20 about the step-by-step process of becoming more assertive. 01:10:23 What we have found over the years is if you get systematic 01:10:26 about it, if you follow a series of specific steps based 01:10:29 on the research that has been done, you can accomplish this 01:10:32 goal a lot more effectively than if you just go ahead in a 01:10:34 kind of random fashion. 01:10:35 So, applied to the kinds of things we have already talked 01:10:38 about when we talked about non-verbal and verbal aspects 01:10:41 of behavior is an overlay process that will step you 01:10:44 through learning to be more assertive in terms of specific 01:10:47 situations in your life, whether they involve saying no 01:10:51 or they involve reaching out to others in a positive way or 01:10:53 whatever aspect of assertiveness you may want to 01:10:55 be learning. 01:10:56 So if you will take a look at the note sheet that you have 01:11:00 there, those of you here in the studio, and if those of 01:11:03 you at home will have an opportunity, we will have a 01:11:06 visual that will go on screen for you, we will talk about 01:11:09 the specific steps in involved. 01:11:11 And it helps to take each of these in turn. 01:11:14 It is possible, certainly to do some of the things we have 01:11:17 done today in our sessions which is 01:11:19 behavior rehearsal process. 01:11:21 But there are some other things that are 01:11:22 really helpful as well. 01:11:23 And let me suggest that we go through those in a systematic 01:11:27 fashion since they are that. 01:11:28 First of all, you obviously have to come up with a 01:11:30 situation if you are going to work on a situation you have 01:11:33 to think about that. 01:11:34 And the first real step is to imagine 01:11:36 yourself in that situation. 01:11:38 And typically I invite folks to close their eyes and go 01:11:40 through that. 01:11:41 But we will go through that process here in a few moments. 01:11:44 Secondly, to observe a model. 01:11:46 Somebody else that you have confidence in as an effective 01:11:50 sort of person in that situation, 01:11:52 modeling it for you. 01:11:53 Showing you a way to handle it in perhaps a more effective 01:11:57 fashion than you have been able to do yourself. 01:11:59 The third step in the process is to imagine it, again, and 01:12:02 see yourself this time handling it more effectively, 01:12:04 perhaps more like the model did. 01:12:06 Not necessarily exactly the same way because you are a 01:12:08 different person after all. 01:12:09 But going though the process yourself. 01:12:12 And again, the imagination? 01:12:13 I'm talking about doing this in your mind with your eyes 01:12:16 closed, visualizing it. 01:12:18 Then to get into an active rehearsal process, and that is 01:12:21 more similar to what we have been doing already, actually 01:12:24 involving yourself in some role playing or behavior 01:12:28 rehearsal, acting at the vignettes as 01:12:30 we have done here. 01:12:31 And then getting feedback about that, finding someone, 01:12:35 either the person you are working with or preferably 01:12:37 even someone else. 01:12:38 If you are working in a group, of course, you have a number 01:12:40 of people to give you feedback on the specific 01:12:42 components of behavior. 01:12:43 So you have rehearsed it now, got some feedback on it and 01:12:47 then try it again. 01:12:48 You are gradually shaping toward a more effective style 01:12:51 of handling it. 01:12:52 Maybe the first time you take the book back to the store, 01:12:54 you come in like this, and after awhile you have got your 01:12:57 head up and you are looking at the other person and you have 01:12:58 raised your voice a little bit. 01:12:59 You are making eye contact. 01:13:01 And you are becoming much more effective. 01:13:02 Each of those things based on the feedback. 01:13:04 So gradually shaping that process. 01:13:07 Rehearsing the behavior gets you ready to try it out then, 01:13:12 the next step, as soon as you are ready to try it out on the 01:13:15 real world and then to reward yourself for success. 01:13:18 Make sure that you pat yourself on the back when you 01:13:21 succeed at doing these things. 01:13:23 Don't be too critical because you are going to make progress 01:13:25 along the way. 01:13:26 And if you will allow yourself the luxury of saying, gee, I 01:13:29 did that pretty well. 01:13:30 I'm pretty proud of the way I handled that, that will 01:13:33 encourage you to keep yourself moving along. 01:13:36 Give yourself some kind of an appropriate reward. 01:13:40 Finally, and this is really an overlay to the entire process, 01:13:44 that is to make sure that the steps that you take, the 01:13:47 situations that you take on are manageable and that you 01:13:50 ensure yourself the greatest possibility of success. 01:13:53 So, I think I mentioned earlier, don't start with the 01:13:56 most important relationship in your life. 01:13:58 If you are having problems with a partner, if you are 01:14:01 having problems with your boss, if you are having 01:14:04 problems with someone you live with and will have to continue 01:14:07 to live with, maybe someone in your family. 01:14:08 If those kinds of issues are inhibiting your assertiveness, 01:14:11 don't start with that one. 01:14:12 Start with something much lower risk to you and much 01:14:17 more likely that you will succeed asking for help for 01:14:19 example in a commercial situation, in a store or 01:14:23 something like that so that you can practice your 01:14:25 assertiveness skills at a level that is pretty likely to 01:14:28 succeed and gradually build up to those ones that are more 01:14:30 important and more troublesome in your lives. 01:14:33 Does that all kind of make sense to you then in terms of 01:14:35 that process? 01:14:36 Okay, let's go through it. 01:14:37 And here is a specific scene I would like you to use and have 01:14:40 you think about. 01:14:41 It's Friday afternoon and you are on the job. 01:14:46 It's getting along about 4 o'clock, 4:30, about time to 01:14:49 shut down as go home as on the typical workweek. 01:14:52 I know folks work different hours, but the typical 01:14:54 workweek situation, it's around 01:14:55 4:30 on a Friday afternoon. 01:14:56 And one of your colleagues comes by your workstation and 01:14:59 says, "You know, a bunch of us are going to get together at" 01:15:02 Joe's on the way home, wouldn't you like to join us?" 01:15:06 I'd like to have you imagine that situation and think about 01:15:08 how you would respond and we will go through it in the 01:15:11 group here. 01:15:11 So close your eyes for just a moment and 01:15:14 think about the scene. 01:15:15 Friday afternoon, you are at work, and one of your 01:15:18 colleagues comes by your spot and says, "Wouldn't you like" 01:15:22 to join us for drinks after work this afternoon at Joe's?" 01:15:30 Let that scene play itself out in your mind for a few moments 01:15:33 and then when you are ready come back to the room and open 01:15:38 your eyes again. 01:15:42 Okay, what did you see? 01:15:44 MALE VOICE: I would say no but offer the 01:15:45 excuse that I was tired. 01:15:47 I wouldn't be able to just no offer an excuse. 01:15:51 That's my first reaction. 01:15:54 DARRELL: I sort of agree with him because I was visualizing 01:15:57 someone coming to me, asking me if I wanted to go out for 01:16:00 drinks, I told them not this evening, I'm sort of tired, 01:16:03 I'll catch you on the next one, next time, something of 01:16:07 that nature. 01:16:09 ALBERTI: Thanks, Darrell. 01:16:10 LOUISA: I would just say, no, I'm tired. 01:16:13 And it wouldn't be a lie. 01:16:14 Friday nights I go home and sleep and that 01:16:17 wouldn't be a lie. 01:16:18 So, don't ask me again, I'll be sleeping. 01:16:29 ALBERTI: Okay. 01:16:29 FRED: I probably would say, "Gee, thanks a lot, but I'm on 01:16:31 the wagon these days." 01:16:34 ALBERTI: Okay, that's pretty straight. 01:16:39 SUE: I do and I have done, "I'm sorry, but I stay out of" 01:16:42 "bars." I'm pretty open about where I am coming from. 01:16:47 But thank you for asking me. 01:16:49 ALBERTI: Okay, good. 01:16:52 Well several of you have different ways of handling it, 01:16:54 but you were mostly all able to say no. 01:16:57 There were a couple of excuses there that I was a little 01:16:59 concerned about from the standpoint of assertiveness. 01:17:00 I'd like to have you come through a little more strongly 01:17:03 in terms of where you are. 01:17:04 But even if you don't want to acknowledge to this particular 01:17:08 person or group that you are in recovery or that you don't 01:17:11 drink or whatever it might be, it isn't necessary as we 01:17:14 talked about earlier in terms of saying no, it's not 01:17:17 necessary to give an excuse. 01:17:19 All right, we have gone through the first step though. 01:17:22 You imagined how you would probably handle the situation. 01:17:25 You did it fairly realistically in terms of your 01:17:27 own response. 01:17:28 Okay, let's see if we can handle it now, up here, having 01:17:31 someone model that for us and try another way of 01:17:35 dealing with it. 01:17:36 And maybe the only fair thing for me to do would be the guy 01:17:38 who is going to do the modeling so get a chance to 01:17:42 get a piece of me at this point, not that you haven't 01:17:43 had enough of me already. 01:17:44 But I will need somebody to volunteer to be the inviter. 01:17:51 Phyllis, did you have your hand up there? 01:18:00 Okay, using that exact scene, and let's just go through it 01:18:05 in the way we imagined and we will presume that I will be 01:18:08 able to respond in an appropriate way. 01:18:11 So I am working away at my workstation here, 01:18:14 whatever I am doing. 01:18:16 PHYLLIS: We are going out to have drinks after work, would 01:18:19 you like to come along with us? 01:18:20 ALBERTI: Gee, thanks Phyllis; I really appreciate the 01:18:21 invitation, but no. 01:18:23 PHYLLIS: It will be fun, come on. 01:18:25 ALBERTI: Oh, I'm sure it will be fun but I'm not? 01:18:28 PHYLLIS: Come on, don't be a party pooper. 01:18:30 ALBERTI: Well, I know, it sounds like I am a party 01:18:31 pooper and I really appreciate it. 01:18:32 But I would rather not. 01:18:34 PHYLLIS: Okay, then, I'll let you take a rain-check. 01:18:37 ALBERTI: Thanks for your understanding. 01:18:43 No, please. 01:18:44 Thanks fellows. 01:18:46 Okay, what did you see? 01:18:48 FEMALE VOICE: Assertiveness. 01:18:49 ALBERTI: How, what did I do? 01:18:51 CAPRI: You didn't give any excuses. 01:18:53 First you thanked her for the invitation and you said no. 01:19:00 And then you said no? You didn't give any excuses. 01:19:03 You were pretty firm and you were just very assertive. 01:19:08 No. 01:19:09 LINDA: And friendly. 01:19:10 You assured her that you knew it would be a 01:19:12 good time but no. 01:19:13 ALBERTI: What did you notice about either specific things 01:19:15 that I said or about my non-verbal behaviors? 01:19:18 FRED: One thing I thought that you said that I thought was 01:19:20 very effective was when she said, "Oh, come on, you are a" 01:19:23 "party pooper," and you just fed it right back to her. 01:19:26 You said, "Yeah, I'm a party pooper, but that's the way it" 01:19:29 "is." It wasn't like you were making excuses or defending 01:19:32 yourself but you just kind of ? You didn't offer anything 01:19:35 but you just kind of fed back to her what she was 01:19:37 saying to you yet? 01:19:40 ALBERTI: Okay, thanks, Fred. 01:19:41 I appreciate that. 01:19:42 TIM: Your body language was neutral. 01:19:43 You weren't threatening or seemed to be threatened by the 01:19:48 invitation. 01:19:49 It was more just a matter of fact for you. 01:19:51 LOUISA: Yeah, you didn't shrink in, or 01:19:53 step back, or fidget. 01:19:57 DARRELL: You stood on the ground. 01:19:58 ALBERTI: Okay, let's take that then. 01:20:01 I appreciate your complimentary feedback. 01:20:04 Let's take that as an example of one possible way of 01:20:07 handling the situation that happens in the workplace on 01:20:10 Friday afternoon. 01:20:11 And I'm going to ask you once again, by way of the second 01:20:13 step in the step-by-step process to imagine the scene 01:20:17 and imagine yourself handling the situation more effectively 01:20:21 than you did the first time. 01:20:22 So close your eyes again if you would. 01:20:23 And just let yourself imagine that scene. 01:20:25 Friday afternoon. 01:20:26 You are at the workplace. 01:20:27 And somebody comes by your workspace and says, would you 01:20:31 join us for drinks this afternoon. 01:20:35 And when you are ready let your eyes open and come back 01:20:36 to the room if you would. 01:20:38 Okay, I hope you found that helpful in terms of 01:20:42 visualizing yourself handling the situation more 01:20:44 effectively. 01:20:44 Did you do anything different, specific items that you can 01:20:48 identify for us, anybody? 01:20:51 Go ahead. 01:20:52 DARRELL: I told the person, oh yes, I will go with you, but 01:20:55 you know I don't drink. 01:20:56 I like to be in your company. 01:20:57 Yes, I will go. 01:20:59 ALBERTI: All right. 01:20:59 Darrell, that is a constructive 01:21:01 way of handling it. 01:21:01 Good. 01:21:02 Somebody else? 01:21:04 PHYLLIS: Well, I just came right out and said, "Thanks", 01:21:06 it's a nice invitation, but I really don't drink." 01:21:09 ALBERTI: Fair enough. 01:21:11 Fair enough. 01:21:12 Somebody else? 01:21:14 LINDA: The first time I seemed to think it sounded like a 01:21:16 good idea and I wanted to say, yeah, that 01:21:18 sounds like a good idea. 01:21:19 And this time I just followed with the 01:21:21 guidelines of saying now. 01:21:23 And they said, oh, well you seem like you 01:21:25 would be a good time. 01:21:26 And I would say, "Yes, I probably would be, but no." 01:21:29 And then they said? 01:21:30 ALBERTI: Good. 01:21:31 LINDA: They said something, took it personally, and 01:21:33 "don't' you like us? 01:21:35 You think you are better than us." And I said, "No," and 01:21:38 then you stopped. 01:21:39 And I'm so glad. 01:21:41 ALBERTI: Okay, all right. 01:21:44 Well, we can all imagine the scenario to go one way or 01:21:48 another obviously in terms of obviously what our minds will 01:21:50 help create for us. 01:21:51 But I think it does help when there is a lot of research to 01:21:54 demonstrate that this process which is sometimes called by 01:21:57 psychologists who like to use a lot of words that help keep 01:22:00 us in job security, "covert sensitization." 01:22:03 " Covert meaning it is not an active overt action but rather" 01:22:06 something that is on your mind. 01:22:08 This visualization process to visualize yourself. 01:22:10 And of course it is used a lot in sports psychology, too, to 01:22:13 help visualize yourself, improve your golf swing, or to 01:22:15 improve whatever happens to be what you do athletically. 01:22:18 In any case, using that process can be very helpful. 01:22:21 So now you have had a chance to imagine yourself doing it 01:22:23 in a successful way. 01:22:24 And now it is your chance to rehearse it and I would like a 01:22:26 couple of volunteers to get up and rehearse that exact scene 01:22:29 as Phyllis and I did and we will let you go through it and 01:22:34 we will continue through the process. 01:22:36 So, who are our volunteers for this round. 01:22:41 Okay, Darrell, I have had you up a couple of times. 01:22:43 Let's see if we can get somebody else. 01:22:44 Louisa, you had your hand up time. 01:22:46 DARRELL: They need to raise their hand. 01:22:47 FEMALE VOICE: They are not assertive. 01:22:48 ALBERTI: Linda is coming up, also, okay, great. 01:22:51 Thank you both. 01:22:53 You know we will let you both do it a couple of times and 01:22:55 reverse it and just get that feedback. 01:22:59 I will get out of your way here. 01:23:01 LOUISA: Hey, you know a bunch of us are going after work 01:23:11 today to get a couple of drinks over at 01:23:13 Joe's, wanna come with? 01:23:15 LINDA: No, thanks. 01:23:16 LOUISA: Everybody is going. 01:23:17 LINDA: I'm not interested. 01:23:18 Actually I have a project going on at home and I would 01:23:21 rather do that. 01:23:22 ALBERTI: All right, let's stop right there. 01:23:23 Okay, what were you feeling? 01:23:26 Were you feeling pressured? 01:23:29 LINDA: Yeah, a little bit. 01:23:31 And basically just want her to know that I have a life 01:23:33 outside of work. 01:23:35 ALBERTI: What pressured you, Linda? 01:23:37 LINDA: Probably the co-worker, trying to blend in the 01:23:41 friendship thing. 01:23:43 ALBERTI: Just having the invitation sounds like was the 01:23:46 pressure there. 01:23:47 LINDA: Right, right. 01:23:48 ALBERTI: Louisa, what did you notice in her response to you? 01:23:51 LOUISA: That she didn't back off and I got close. 01:23:54 And I don't think she gave any leeway for too many questions. 01:24:00 That's why I said everybody is going and done after that. 01:24:05 What she said, I wouldn't have said anymore. 01:24:07 I wouldn't have asked again. 01:24:09 ALBERTI: Okay, what did somebody else notice? 01:24:10 Anything that you want to mention? 01:24:12 TIM: She offered an excuse. 01:24:13 ALBERTI: Yes, she did, Tim. 01:24:14 What was the excuse? 01:24:15 Do you remember? 01:24:15 TIM: That she had to go home and work on a project there. 01:24:18 ALBERTI: Okay, and did you need that excuse? 01:24:22 LINDA: Probably not. 01:24:23 ALBERTI: I didn't hear Louisa come on with enough persistent 01:24:27 pressure to even feel that you needed to say anything more. 01:24:30 But you felt you needed to say something more. 01:24:32 And I think that is kind of an important element of one of 01:24:34 these things that we get that feeling inside that somehow I 01:24:37 need to explain myself. 01:24:39 I need to take care of this other person's needs. 01:24:41 I need to help here to feel better about the 01:24:44 situation and you don't. 01:24:46 Now you may want to. 01:24:47 And maybe she is such a weak person that you are just 01:24:52 afraid she is going to fall apart if you say no to her, 01:24:54 and that sometimes happens. 01:24:55 And there are people who have very little strength and who 01:24:58 have difficulty in this kind of way, that sort of rejection 01:25:01 kind of thing. 01:25:01 But that wasn't happening here. 01:25:03 And Louisa is not that weak person and you didn't need 01:25:06 that excuse. 01:25:07 Okay, let's do it again just real quickly and this time 01:25:09 without the excuse. 01:25:12 LOUISA: Hey Linda, a bunch of us are going out after work 01:25:14 today to get a couple of drinks at Joe's. 01:25:16 Do you want to come with us. 01:25:18 LINDA: No thanks, no. 01:25:19 LOUISA: You sure? 01:25:20 LINDA: Yeah, I'm sure. 01:25:21 LOUISA: Okay. 01:25:23 ALBERTI: Okay, how did that feel? 01:25:24 LINDA: Fine. 01:25:25 It was fine. 01:25:28 That's right, yeah, brief. 01:25:29 ALBERTI: And how about the response, Louisa? 01:25:32 LOUISA: I felt that when she said no thanks, I didn't think 01:25:39 it left me any room to say, "Oh, but everybody is going" 01:25:41 without like being an idiot. 01:25:44 ALBERTI: So she was real clear up front and it was kind of 01:25:48 right there and direct. 01:25:49 LOUISA: Yeah. 01:25:50 ALBERTI: Okay, and that is an economy of human energy that 01:25:53 maybe is worthwhile for all of us to think about. 01:25:56 Okay, let's reverse it. 01:25:57 Let's do the same thing again, only Linda this 01:25:59 time you ask Louisa. 01:26:03 LINDA: Hi Louisa. 01:26:04 We are going out drinking tonight, right after work, 01:26:08 down the street, a block away. 01:26:10 Come one. 01:26:11 LOUISA: No thanks. 01:26:12 LINDA: Oh, come on, five minutes and half an hour you 01:26:16 will be out of there. 01:26:17 LOUISA: No, thank you. 01:26:18 I really don't want to do that tonight. 01:26:20 LINDA: Okay. 01:26:23 ALBERTI: Good, good. 01:26:24 How did that feel on your end, Louisa? 01:26:27 LOUISA: Like something that I would actually never say. 01:26:29 ALBERTI: I'm glad you are getting a new experience here. 01:26:33 I hope that for everyone, including for our video 01:26:36 audience, that that is something that they will 01:26:38 recognize, too. 01:26:38 Is this is something that you wouldn't have done, but 01:26:40 assertiveness training offers new opportunities for personal 01:26:43 growth and here is a chance to try something 01:26:45 you would never do. 01:26:45 That's great. 01:26:46 LOUISA: Yeah, that helped. 01:26:47 ALBERTI: Good, I'm really glad you did. 01:26:48 And how about the response? 01:26:50 How did you feel about what she said, Linda, was it clear? 01:26:52 Did you feel? 01:26:52 LINDA: Yeah, I didn't want to guess. 01:26:54 I didn't want to push her anymore. 01:26:55 I thought I tried my best tactics and what I could do to 01:27:00 persuade her to go. 01:27:01 And, no, it was very clear. 01:27:04 I didn't need to carry on any further. 01:27:05 She wasn't going to go. 01:27:07 ALBERTI: All right, any feedback from the group that 01:27:09 you would to give to either Linda or Louisa in 01:27:11 terms of the way? 01:27:11 TIM: Louisa did seem uncomfortable saying no. 01:27:15 Her tone was softer. 01:27:20 You could tell that it was a new experience, at least I got 01:27:25 that impression. 01:27:26 Although the words were there. 01:27:28 DARRELL: I noticed that in Louisa when she did both of 01:27:31 the little skits, from the first one and this one here 01:27:35 that she was shy even at asking Linda 01:27:41 to go out for drinks. 01:27:42 She had a shyness about herself. 01:27:44 It's like somebody put me up to ask her this. 01:27:47 ALBERTI: Okay, can you be specific, Darrell, about what 01:27:49 gave you that cue that she was being shy? 01:27:51 DARRELL: It was her body language, the way she was 01:27:56 standing there, and then the expression on her face sort of 01:28:01 gave me that? Looked like somebody had put her up to 01:28:04 come and ask Linda to come and go to have drinks. 01:28:07 Because it appeared to me that it wouldn't be something that. 01:28:10 Linda would ask a person by the way she was standing there 01:28:15 and the way I saw the expressions on her face. 01:28:18 ALBERTI: As if she really didn't want to do it. 01:28:19 DARRELL: Is that so? 01:28:20 LOUISA: Oh yeah. 01:28:22 ALBERTI: Yeah, but you came up here 01:28:24 voluntarily and you did it. 01:28:26 No bribes, no payments, no coercion. 01:28:29 And here you are doing it and you gained a little experience 01:28:32 at trying something you might not have tried. 01:28:35 FEMALE VOICE: She was making eye contact with Linda until 01:28:38 she said no and broke away and looked this way; When it came 01:28:42 to the no, the eye contact? It's like she couldn't look 01:28:44 her in the eye. 01:28:44 ALBERTI: A little uncomfortable to handle that. 01:28:46 LOUISA: That's so me. 01:28:49 ALBERTI: Okay, and I don't expect you as I think I have 01:28:51 said repeatedly and would say again for the benefit for the 01:28:54 video and everyone, that I don't expect you to be someone 01:28:57 you are not. 01:28:57 And don't expect yourself to be someone you are not. 01:29:00 I want you to be fully yourself. 01:29:01 But I want you to be an empowered self. 01:29:03 I want you to try those things which will help you to gain 01:29:07 control of your life and to make your own decisions for 01:29:09 what you want to do and not be manipulated by situations that 01:29:12 you can't say no to. 01:29:14 Thank you both very much for coming up. 01:29:15 I appreciate it. 01:29:18 Okay, now we have gone through several steps. 01:29:20 You have looked at it in your mind's eye from a standpoint 01:29:23 of how you might handle it and you watched me model it. 01:29:25 You looked at your mind's eye of how you would handle it in 01:29:27 a more effective way and now we have had at least one 01:29:30 rehearsal process and some coaching and feedback. 01:29:33 So you have essentially seen the process as it goes. 01:29:36 And I hope that both of you will reward yourselves for the 01:29:38 good jobs that you did. 01:29:39 That's the procedure that we use. 01:29:42 And that procedure, I think, is very important to keep in 01:29:45 your mind as you are going through this process of 01:29:47 developing more assertive skills because the fact is 01:29:50 that as you practice, if you practice in this step-by-step 01:29:54 systematic way, you will find that your growth 01:29:57 will be much faster. 01:29:57 It will be much more effective. 01:29:59 The saying no process, obviously, is something we 01:30:02 have focused heavily on today. 01:30:03 And, again, there are other types of assertive skills that 01:30:05 are important. 01:30:06 The basic process, the step-by-step process that we 01:30:09 have talked about is the same for all of those. 01:30:12 If I want to extend a compliment and I am finding it 01:30:15 difficult to think of a way to deal with it, I can go through 01:30:20 these same steps. 01:30:21 I can imagine that I can watch somebody else extending 01:30:23 compliments and say, wow, I really like 01:30:25 the way he does it. 01:30:25 And then I can imagine myself doing it that way or in some 01:30:28 more effective way. 01:30:29 And I can practice it. 01:30:30 I can start with the dog and I can work my way up to more 01:30:33 threatening situations, more risky situations. 01:30:37 And so what we would like for each of you to do, including 01:30:40 those of you who are watching the video is to practice using 01:30:45 the steps that we are talking about here. 01:30:47 Practice using that visualization because I think 01:30:50 that is an important starting point for you. 01:30:52 It is an important point to be able to imagine first to 01:30:55 recognize how you do it, then you think about how you might 01:30:57 do it more effectively like some model would do it, and 01:31:00 then to practice yourself doing it more effectively and 01:31:02 to go through that coaching and feedback process so that 01:31:05 you are trying it out, finding out how you can improve things 01:31:08 like eye contact, how you can improve things like your 01:31:12 posture and your gestures and your facial expression and the 01:31:15 other aspects of an assertive message. 01:31:19 I think that maybe this is a good place to wind this 01:31:22 session up and just to reiterate only one thing and 01:31:27 that is in an assertive communication process, an 01:31:55 assertive behavior is a learned skill and you develop 01:32:10 any learned skill by repeated practice. 01:32:16 CARLSON: Is it starting to come together for you, looking 01:32:24 at this whole assertiveness package, the steps that we 01:32:27 just went through. 01:32:28 The non-verbal and then the verbal ways 01:32:31 of asserting yourself. 01:32:33 What kind of reactions have you had so far? 01:32:36 Are you surprised at how complicated this is? 01:32:41 Or pleased at how simple it might be? 01:32:44 LOUISA: I was surprised at how much easier it is to just say 01:32:49 no then it is to make up an excuse. 01:32:51 You don't need to think as hard. 01:32:53 DARRELL: It's like you have it inside and you are? This is 01:32:57 helping us bring it out. 01:32:58 It's just lying dormant but the acting out and speaking on 01:33:02 it is bringing it back to life. 01:33:05 PHYLLIS: I like it when he said just be assertive by 01:33:06 saying no and you don't have to give and explanation why. 01:33:10 It's just, no. 01:33:12 CARLSON: Yeah. 01:33:12 TIM: What's most amazing to me is that I have realized when 01:33:16 somebody asks me to do something, generally I want to 01:33:19 do it for them because they are a friend or whatever the 01:33:21 case may be. 01:33:22 Worrying about their feelings more than mine. 01:33:27 And I need to realize that by saying no, I really do take 01:33:31 care of myself much more, especially if it is no without 01:33:35 a little white lie attached to it. 01:33:38 DARRELL: It has given me the courage to really to be able 01:33:40 to stand up before a lot of people that I have been 01:33:44 backing down from to be able to stand up further and say, 01:33:47 no, concerning a lot of matters in my life, you know. 01:33:52 LOUISA: If you could learn to do that then you won't get 01:33:54 caught without an excuse. 01:33:57 Like if someone says, oh, let's go for a drink? 01:34:00 "I can't." Why? 01:34:02 "Well because..um. You now." And then if you could just 01:34:08 learn to say no straight away, you don't have 01:34:11 to worry about that. 01:34:11 DARRELL: I'm going to add to that, because in saying no, my 01:34:15 conscience would bother me all the time and I would go back 01:34:18 and I would think, oh gosh, why couldn't I just tell it 01:34:20 the way I wanted to tell it. 01:34:21 But now I feel that I can just stand up and say regardless of 01:34:25 what the outcome of the situation is, I can say no, 01:34:29 stand on no and go on and don't have to go and worry 01:34:32 about it, or what they think about me or if I have hurt 01:34:34 their feelings or anything. 01:34:37 And I need that. 01:34:39 PHYLLIS: Well like I said earlier, I think it is best to 01:34:41 go ahead and be able to say no rather than say yes to 01:34:44 something that you don't want to do or to a certain feeling 01:34:48 that somebody is making you feel uncomfortable. 01:34:50 Why should you suppress this stuff and hold it in? 01:34:53 And, you know. 01:34:55 FEMALE VOICE: My voice was never being? It wasn't so 01:34:57 much saying no as it was separating you from me when I 01:35:02 said no, you know. "No," and they would never ask? 01:35:06 But I had to get like angry about it or something and this 01:35:09 is telling me that I can agree to disagree. 01:35:12 That kind of? And I never knew that. 01:35:15 I mean that is just? Because I always thought if I let go 01:35:18 of that then I would lose myself and 01:35:20 wouldn't know who I was. 01:35:21 But now you are telling me that I don't have to be that 01:35:24 intimidating and yet at the same time I can still have me. 01:35:30 And so this is wonderful for me. 01:35:32 It's like I am taking home this whole bag of tools that I 01:35:35 am going to start working with. 01:35:36 CARLSON: Well there is one more piece for your tool bag 01:35:38 that we have got to get to. 01:35:40 And that has to do with looking at those barriers, 01:35:43 those barriers that get in the way of assertiveness and then 01:35:47 to learn one more technique that Bob has been talking 01:35:50 about that of "I" messages. 01:35:52 So could you go ahead? 01:35:55 ALBERTI: In our next session we will talk about "I" 01:35:57 messages which is one of the items that I introduced 01:36:00 earlier when we were talking about verbal ways 01:36:02 of asserting yourself. 01:36:03 And we will also deal a little bit with anxiety which is one 01:36:05 of the significant obstacles that we all tend to face when 01:36:08 we are trying to express ourselves assertively. 01:36:11 It's one of those things that is inside of ourselves. 01:36:13 We also have some obstacles outside ourselves and we will 01:36:15 touch on that briefly as well. 01:36:16 We have talked a lot about "I" messages as a specific tool of 01:36:25 communication and verbal aspect of being assertive. 01:36:28 What I would like for us to do is a short exercise that would 01:36:31 demonstrate that. 01:36:32 And Tim, I wonder if you would give me a hand. 01:36:33 You are going to be my boss. 01:36:36 And you are one of those bosses who keeps everything 01:36:38 until the end of the day and then comes in and says, "On my" 01:36:41 desk." 01:36:41 TIM: I have one of those bosses. 01:36:42 ALBERTI: Well terrific, you will be able to do it 01:36:44 beautifully then. 01:36:45 Come on up here with me, if you would. 01:36:46 And I would like you to bring me an assignment at say 01:36:49 quarter to five or something like that. 01:36:52 Assuming the work day ends at 5 o'clock. 01:36:55 TIM: Do I need it done tonight? 01:36:55 ALBERTI: No, but you need it first thing in the morning for 01:36:56 a meeting that is going to be say 9 o'clock or 01:36:58 something like that. 01:36:59 So let's see how we do here. 01:37:01 TIM: Bob, this portfolio needs to be gone through tonight. 01:37:06 I need it tomorrow morning 8am. 01:37:08 I forgot it in my car all day, I'm sorry about that. 01:37:10 ALBERTI: Man, Tim, it's quarter to five. 01:37:12 TIM: It looks like you will be here, I don't know, 9, 10 01:37:14 o'clock at the latest. 01:37:15 ALBERTI: Oh, come on. 01:37:16 TIM: I'll buy you dinner. 01:37:17 ALBERTI: But buying me dinner doesn't do the job. 01:37:19 TIM: No, but at least you will have something to eat while 01:37:22 you work late. 01:37:22 ALBERTI: Can I just do a quick summary of it, because I 01:37:24 really don't have time to stay past about 5:30. 01:37:25 TIM: You will have to come in early in the morning then. 01:37:28 ALBERTI: Well that isn't going to work either because I can't 01:37:30 get here early in the morning, you know what the traffic 01:37:31 situation is coming from my place. 01:37:33 TIM: Well what am I going to do? 01:37:34 You are the one that has the responsibility for it now. 01:37:37 ALBERTI: I know, but man you should have asked me earlier 01:37:38 in the day. 01:37:39 There just isn't any way that I can accomplish 01:37:40 that at this point. 01:37:41 TIM: You can take it home. 01:37:42 ALBERTI: I have to tell you this. 01:37:45 I'm going to do the best I can on this. 01:37:47 I can't promise you that it is going to be the job that you 01:37:50 want because of the time that you give it to me. 01:37:52 But what I need for you to know is that it makes me 01:37:54 really uncomfortable and sometimes a bit angry when you 01:37:57 come at me at quarter of five and it is not the first time 01:37:59 that this has happened. 01:38:00 Something like this and so I find myself really resenting 01:38:04 it and getting upset with it. 01:38:06 TIM: Well all I ask is do the best you can. 01:38:08 You are exactly right. 01:38:10 ALBERTI: I will. 01:38:10 And I guess what I need to ask of you is to give me your 01:38:13 commitment to minimize this kind of thing in the future 01:38:15 except in emergency. 01:38:17 TIM: I can do that. 01:38:18 ALBERTI: Sounds like you could have got this together a 01:38:19 little earlier for me. 01:38:20 TIM: Yeah, it was in the car, so you are right. 01:38:22 ALBERTI: Okay, thanks. 01:38:23 TIM: Great. 01:38:23 Thanks. 01:38:24 ALBERTI: I assume you are going to stick around. 01:38:26 You can also be a resource for me as I work through this. 01:38:29 TIM: You can call me at home. 01:38:34 ALBERTI: Okay, how did he do? 01:38:35 FEMALE VOICE: Real good. 01:38:36 Very well. 01:38:37 Both of you? 01:38:38 ALBERTI: I did wind up doing it, didn't I? 01:38:39 LINDA: It's just like you to. 01:38:41 ALBERTI: I didn't say flat no. 01:38:45 Obviously you make a choice in that situation. 01:38:47 How important in this? 01:38:48 Is this boss somebody that I am willing to work 01:38:51 with in this way. 01:38:52 Is this a project that I feel is my full 01:38:54 responsibility to handle. 01:38:55 Is somebody else not able to handle it better? 01:38:57 There might have been times when I simply would have had 01:38:59 to say, "Sorry, Tim, I'm out of here." 01:39:00 It's five o'clock. 01:39:01 "I'm punching out." 01:39:04 LOUISA: I was wondering where he parked, he kept saying it 01:39:06 is the car, it is in the car. 01:39:07 Where's the car, Utah? 01:39:08 Just go out and get it. 01:39:12 SUE: I thought you negotiated really well. 01:39:14 ALBERTI: Anything particular about that, Sue, that I did 01:39:16 that was helpful? 01:39:16 SUE: Well because you came up with the fact that you would 01:39:18 do it, so you were showing that you were willing, but yet 01:39:21 you stated your opinion about that he was not respecting you 01:39:26 and your time. 01:39:26 ALBERTI: Okay, thank you. 01:39:28 And that's what I was trying to do in the 01:39:30 sense of an "I" message. 01:39:31 Again, coming back at him. 01:39:32 Letting him know that it gets me upset and sometimes a 01:39:35 little angry and I need for your to respect me and provide 01:39:39 me with some lead time the next time you need that and 01:39:41 those kinds of things. 01:39:41 So it was attempt to express that in terms of? 01:39:45 I don't recall having said? Now you folks can keep me 01:39:47 honest about this. 01:39:48 I don't recall having said that in some way you are a bad 01:39:53 guy for doing this. 01:39:54 I did say you have done it before, but again, that was a 01:39:57 statement of fact and I was trying to express it in terms 01:39:59 of my opinions, my feelings about the circumstances. 01:40:04 TIM: The statement of "I'm" 01:40:06 "uncomfortable" is really disarming. 01:40:09 It really disarmed me completely. 01:40:12 I almost didn't know what to say after that. 01:40:14 SUE: Good word. 01:40:14 Disarming. 01:40:15 TIM: As we said earlier, I don't ? It's not as disarming 01:40:20 to the person. 01:40:22 LYNN: I think the other side of that should be shown in as 01:40:24 much as what if you weren't assertive, what would you do? 01:40:27 He would bring it in, you would say okay. 01:40:30 You would be up all night. 01:40:31 You would be? All that stuff that goes on inside of us. 01:40:34 And so finally one day all he does is walk through a door 01:40:37 and it shuts on you and you go ballistic over something 01:40:41 because you have been letting all of this stuff. 01:40:43 That's how? 01:40:44 ALBERTI: I understand what you are saying, Lynn. 01:40:45 I don't necessarily subscribe to the steam kettle theory, 01:40:48 but the fact is we do have memories. 01:40:50 And the fact is we do remember when somebody has mistreated 01:40:53 us over a period of time. 01:40:54 LYNN: We have to say something. 01:40:54 ALBERTI: And we resent that person. 01:40:56 We no longer respect that person and we no longer 01:40:58 respect ourselves as we talked about that as an element. 01:41:01 LYNN: And by doing what you did, you kind of took that off 01:41:04 because you set some boundaries and you 01:41:06 said how you felt. 01:41:07 It's not okay. 01:41:08 It's not okay. 01:41:09 You can continue to do it because you are the boss, but 01:41:11 it is really not okay. 01:41:12 ALBERTI: Yes. 01:41:12 You have learned a lot here. 01:41:14 It's become kind of a language among us. 01:41:17 We use terms assertive and aggressive and non-assertive. 01:41:19 We use the kind of feedback terms. 01:41:21 We use the components of behavior. 01:41:23 Those are not necessarily real when you are out there, when 01:41:25 you are dealing with the people in your life when you 01:41:27 walk outside this door. 01:41:28 For those of you at home, the same kind of thing. 01:41:30 You are watching a video, you are learning a 01:41:31 lot of things here. 01:41:32 But what do you do when you turn off the VCR and you start 01:41:35 dealing with the people in your life? 01:41:36 And so I think it is really important for us to recognize 01:41:39 that those kinds of issues, to make the link from this 01:41:42 learning process to the real world is a real key thing. 01:41:45 We have talked about a whole range of different things. 01:41:48 And I hope those of you who are watching the video have 01:41:50 recognized that these kinds of things apply to you as well as 01:41:53 they do to the people in this room. 01:41:54 We have talked about the whole issue of in this session the 01:41:59 whole issue of expressing oneself in 01:42:01 terms of "I" messages. 01:42:02 And we have talked about dealing with obstacles in life 01:42:05 and particularly dealing with those internal obstacles of 01:42:08 anxiety and negative thoughts that get in the way of our 01:42:11 being assertive, even if we have assertive skills. 01:42:13 And so I think it is really important for us to recognize 01:42:16 that those kinds of issues, to make the link from this 01:42:19 learning process to the real world is a real key thing. 01:42:22 CARLSON: Well, Bob, a lot has been accomplished in a short 01:42:55 period of time. 01:42:56 And our group here in the studio has learned a lot of 01:43:00 important information about assertiveness. 01:43:03 We have learned the importance of choice. 01:43:06 They have learned the importance of how to 01:43:08 participate actively in conversations without being 01:43:12 pushy or without being loud. 01:43:14 We have also been able to lean to respond firmly if asked an 01:43:19 unreasonable kind of request or favor. 01:43:23 They have learned how to request service in a positive 01:43:27 but yet a friendly manner. 01:43:29 They have learned to express affection openly as well as 01:43:33 spontaneously. 01:43:35 You have learned how to disagree without putting other 01:43:38 people down. 01:43:39 You have been willing to risk expressing yourself and even 01:43:46 in those situations where other people might disapprove. 01:43:49 And hopefully you have learned to view yourself as equals. 01:43:53 And that you really do have a right to be assertive. 01:44:00 ALBERTI: I hope that the two words that we started out 01:44:04 talking about, respect and choice, are things that will 01:44:06 stick with you as you think about what we learned in these 01:44:10 last couple of days, or last couple of hours together. 01:44:15 I think that the process of being assertive offers that 01:44:20 promise to you and I hope you will take advantage of it. 01:44:23 LEWIS: We have learned so much here. 01:44:25 Let's just take a minute to think about something very 01:44:27 specific and concrete that you might do a little bit 01:44:30 differently because you have been here today. 01:44:32 Let's start with Fred. 01:44:35 FRED: I can't right at this point think of anything 01:44:37 specific or concrete. 01:44:40 But I do believe that the skills that I have learned 01:44:43 here today will help me the next time a situation does 01:44:48 present itself that will cause me stress with another person. 01:44:51 And, I certainly will stop to think about how I am going to 01:44:55 handle it before I go into that situation. 01:45:01 LYNN: For me, I will be able to use these 01:45:04 techniques in the workplace. 01:45:05 The workplace now is where I live. 01:45:07 I live with the clients for six to nine 01:45:09 months, 24 hours a day. 01:45:12 Techniques I had before, methods I had before aren't 01:45:15 working in this environment. 01:45:18 But the ones that I picked up today such as treating as 01:45:21 equals and the respect and agreeing to disagree, that 01:45:30 kind of thing is going to be very helpful, I feel, when I 01:45:34 get back to the workplace. 01:45:35 CAPRI: One of the important things that I learned and I am 01:45:41 going to implement is that my non-verbal messages are just 01:45:45 as important as my verbal messages in assertive 01:45:49 communication. 01:45:50 That my fluency and that my pitch is important as well. 01:46:00 SUE: My sobriety, my life in recovery has been totally.I 01:46:04 have had to learn totally new behaviors for just about 01:46:06 everything. 01:46:07 And I think, again, this is another one where another tool 01:46:12 to whole different part of my behavior. 01:46:15 And one of the things I have realized through this whole 01:46:19 process is that respect for others, that they may not 01:46:24 interpret things as I mean them. 01:46:26 And that I need to stop and think before I say something. 01:46:29 Think about how I want to say it and think about how I want 01:46:33 it to be perceived. 01:46:36 And again, practice will make it come a little bit easier. 01:46:41 TIM: I will use the techniques, assertiveness, in 01:46:45 lieu of aggression in a disagreement, not an argument, 01:46:51 a disagreement in realizing that it helps the other person 01:46:58 understand that I respect their opinion while I can 01:47:01 still disagree with them. 01:47:02 And at the same time validating my own objections. 01:47:10 LINDA: I will probably apply the "I" skill most of all. 01:47:15 I have a tendency not to let people know anything about 01:47:22 myself, maybe. 01:47:23 And I think just by using the "I" statement when I am upset 01:47:27 or angry will be helpful to those around me. 01:47:32 LOUISA: I think I will use the assertiveness in 01:47:36 saying no the most. 01:47:38 Because, as I said, I explain things away. 01:47:42 Every little thing, whether it is a truthful lie, just 01:47:46 explain away. 01:47:47 And I think that this gave me the skills to be able to say 01:47:51 what I mean and not have to go further into a saga. 01:47:59 PHYLLIS: Well, I have learned that it will be good for me to 01:48:05 say no? Don't say yes when I really mean no? And to be 01:48:09 able to say no without an explanation. 01:48:14 DARRELL: I myself will take that "I" treatment and apply 01:48:17 that to myself. 01:48:18 For one it is my responsibility to 01:48:22 assertiveness, to say no, and stand on it. 01:48:25 And what I thought I have lost as I sat here for these two 01:48:28 days, I have gained so much more and willing and ready to 01:48:33 go and face the world. 01:48:34 CARLSON: Well on that? 01:48:35 ALBERTI: Excuse me, Jon. 01:48:37 I was going to say it is exciting to hear each of you 01:48:41 with your individual ways of responding to what we have 01:48:44 done and I certainly give you my best wishes for your 01:48:48 continued success as well as those of you who are watching 01:48:50 this on video. 01:48:51 And again, as I said before, I hope you will take the 01:48:52 inspiration from these folks and go 01:48:54 about it and do likewise. 01:48:56 CARLSON: I'd like to think you very much. 01:48:58 ALBERTI: It's been my pleasure.